Atheists Protest Ground Zero Cross

WorldNetDaily ^ | Posted: June 18, 2002 | By Ron Strom

[Bad~Rodeo]

Decry plan to use symbol as part of 9-11 memorial

:

The organization American Atheists is protesting a proposal to use a large steel cross found in the rubble of the World Trade Center in a memorial to victims of the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks.

Describing itself as a "nationwide movement which defends the civil rights of nonbelievers," the group said in a statement yesterday that use of the cross in a government-funded monument "would violate the separation of church and state, be insensitive to those victims who had no religious beliefs and would incredibly pay homage to religion – the prime motivating factor in the faith-based attack of Sept. 11."

The Lower Manhattan Development Corporation is the local agency in charge of planning for the rebuilding of the site.

Ed Malloy, president of the Building and Construction Trades Council and a board member of the agency, has asked that the cross be made a permanent part of any future memorial.

According to the New York Daily News, construction workers, firefighters, police officers and family members have held weekly Sunday services at the site of the cross since Sept. 11.

"We're hoping it will stay right where it is and become part of any permanent memorial," Malloy was quoted as saying in the Daily News.

Ellen Johnson, president of American Atheists objects to the possibility that the cross might be used in a taxpayer-supported project.

"This is an inappropriate use of taxpayer money," she said in the statement, "You can't take government funds to promote religion, especially sectarian religion in the form of a cross or any other religious symbol."

Johnson added that any memorial to the victims of the attacks "should bring Americans together, not divide them on the basis or religion or anything else."

Ron Barrier, national spokesman for the group, stressed that Muslims, Hindus and other non-Christians were killed in the attacks as well.

What about them? he asked. "Are we going to turn the site of the WTC into a religious shrine with competing religious slogans, symbols and displays? Any monument to the victims, and those who helped in the aftermath of Sept. 11 should be tasteful, as well as a unifying statement about America and humanity.

"Christian symbols are as inappropriate as a Muslim crescent or some other religious label," Barrier said.

Construction worker Frank Silecchia happened upon the perfectly symmetrical cross in the midst of the WTC wreckage just a few days after the attacks. It was standing straight, 20-feet high, surrounded by many smaller crosses.

"When I first saw it, it took my heart," Silecchia said. "It helped me heal the burden of my despair, and gave me closure on the whole catastrophe."

Said WorldNetDaily columnist Ann Coulter in an October column : "The cross at Ground Zero was not simply the cross beams remaining from an existing building. It was formed out of beams from Building One plunging, splitting and crashing into Building Six."

"There's no symmetry to anything down there," an FBI chaplain said at the time, "except those crosses."

Johnson said that her group would go to court if necessary to challenge the use of government money for the placement of any religious symbol at the WTC site.

[VaBthang4]

Amen bttt

[flyervet]

Well, I suppose that's one possible interpretation. I always thought of it as a dignified abstraction of the pain and confusion of the Vietnam era. I especially like the fact that everyone who comes to the memorial sees himself reflected in the surface of it, with the names seemingly superimposed on that reflection, inescapable. The clean, stark lines, the sheer volume of names, the way that one comes up on the monument, like a scar on the face of America contribute to an overwhelming experience, one that is unshakeable, as your vistis attest. Though you hate the monument, you have gone back several times, even leaving flowers. Out of all the Vietnam monuments in the country, including the graves of those you've lost, it is to this monument that you return.

[cake_crumb]

"I see we're thinking along the same lines today; you posted yours while I was writing mine..."

Great minds think alike <G>

[Future Snake Eater]

"Christian symbols are as inappropriate as a Muslim crescent or some other religious label," Barrier said

It's a Christian country, dipsh!t! I can't stand these idiots.

[Future Snake Eater]

Why can't we make these atheists AND the Christians happy? One one side, we'll put a cross and on the other side we'll put nothing. That way, each group's beliefs will be represented.

That's a terrific idea! Send it up to whoever is in charge of that Charlie Foxtrot.

[Dimensio]

Now, before you say, "Prove it" and "how do you know" and "who do you think you are" and "you Christians are all the same" bla bla bla, Just know this: this is the day of salvation for you -- you are not to walk away from this proposition or you may perish in your sins. DONT BLOW THIS OFF.

In other words, you present your baldfaced assertions with absolutely no evidence and don't even pretend to have evidence to offer and all that you can back it up with is "you'd better believe or you'll be sorry!"? Your only "argument" in favour of your position is an appeal to force (what with that "never-ending agonizing torment" and all)?

I'm sorry, but it's not convincing. You repeatedly asserting the same thing over and over again without providing evidence does not make it any more convincing. If I am to believe then I must have evidence. I don't think that skepticism makes me "smart", but it is simply the way I think and I do believe that accepting any evidence-devoid assertions tossed my way would make me stupid.

[Dimensio]

True, being an atheist or secular-humanist dolt can be accomplished w/o boring oneself silly by reading dull 20th-century existentialists. Great point!

I'm not entirely certain as to how you intended this to be interpreted. Are you making a distinction between atheists and "secular-humanists dolts" or are you applying the "dolt" label to both atheists and secular-humanists? Also, are you asserting that all atheists and/or secular humanists are dolts or just a subset? If the former, do you have anything to back up such an assertion or are you just appealing to an ad hominem because you don't really have an argument?

You also didn't answer my question regarding life after death (or lack thereof). Where your comments expressing disgust in the lack of a belief in an afterlife some kind of attempt to construct an argument? To me, it sounded more like appeal to ridicule and appeal to the consequences but perhaps you were simply unclear in your wording.

[tortoise]

worship of no deity

Is that like breathing a vacuum?

[flyervet]

Whoops! I cut myself off.

I think non-representationl monuments are appropriate for events that are too big and complext to compartmentalize. I think that is what give the Vietnam memorial such a grip on the American population. Another good example, IMHO, are the empty chairs at the OKC memorial and the "pool of names" at the Civil Rights Memorial in Montgomery. 09/11 was too big and too painful to be easily summed up in a traditional architectural statement. A broken, melted bit of steel won't do it justice, regardless of the shape of that steel. 09/11 deserves an eloquent monument which is as compelling as the Vietnam memorial and as expressive of grief as the OKC chairs.

[Dimensio]

I think that it's more like trying to imply that someone has to get dressed to "wear nothing".

[cake_crumb]

...Actually, I was going to ask "what the heck are you talking about"??

That cross has been a symbol of strength and comfort for thousands since 9-11. It is an internationally recognized historical artifact from ground zero. As such, it should remain...right where it is, so that future generations can see it and touch it and read the inscriptions upon it.

On another thread, months ago, I argued for the historical significance of the flag which hung at ground zero, and was written upon (defaced to the purist) and insisted it should be preserved. That flag became more than a cloth symbol of America...it was transformed into a piece of American history. Tangible proof of how millions of people feel about this atrocity, which should be preserved for our decendants. That cross, for the same reasons, is not just a symbol of a particular religion. It is a tangible piece of US history. Our cultural heritage.

9-11...looks like we're beginning to forget after all.

[cake_crumb]

"Is that like breathing a vacuum?"

...perhaps more like BELIEVING you could breath in a vacuum....

Whoa...going on existential overload here....

[tortoise]

You realize, of course, that you are competing with Islam, Hindu, Buddhism, and slew of other religions. It isn't like there is only one choice on Religion Row -- there are many people selling many different brands of religion. Unless you make it obvious how your particular product will help the customer in a way the competitors won't, you aren't doing a very good job.

In short, what distinguishes your product from all others? Why should Dimensio or anyone else choose your brand over the competitors? And remember, you don't have a monopoly so you do have to make a compelling case.

[f.Christian]

Good News For The Day

‘Love never fails’ (1 Corinthians 13:8)

"Do you accept this as a statement of fact? Surely everyone has witnessed what could only be described as a failure of love? When a marriage breaks down, is that a failure of love? Sometimes love appears to fail by reason of its lack. Sometimes it love is stubbornly refused. A youth despises the love of his parent. A maid spurns the love of a suitor."

"More than this, love seems an inadequate force in society. It does not keep society at peace. We have to have police. A crazed man holds schoolchildren hostage. Love is brought to bear in the form of negotiators who speak gently to the man as he makes his demands. But it doesn't work. He shoots one of the children. Love has stretched as far as it can. A police marksman moves in, and soon the terror is over."

"Those in this world who have put their trust in love, are often in despair when they feel driven to act in ways that seem contrary to love."

"Christians live in terrible tension between the unyielding love of God, expressed in Christ, and a... fallen environment---where this very love is absent and sinned against."

"There is a great chasm between the way Christ loved, and the way the rest of the world loves. In the end, we are obliged to look only to Christ's love, if we are to behold a love which never fails. It is there that redemption awaits us. And any successes in love that might be ours, will be measured by our love'' likeness to His."

[Dimensio]

He (or she, since I don't like to presume) has already made his (or her) case. His (or hers) is the "ONE TRUE FAITH". Unfortunately, he (or she) doesn't seem to grasp the concept that to someone who doesn't already believe, the theology of Christianity is no more convincing than that of many other religions. He (or she) is out to spread the "Good News" to his (or her) fellow man (or woman) without grasping that sometimes just making an assertion isn't enough -- sometimes a little thing called "evidence" is required.

He (or she) spouts off on how all other faiths are "demonic" without explaining why his (or her) faith should be given any greater crediblity. If he (or she) wants to convert me to become a brother (or sister) in Christ, he (or she) needs to understand that I am unable to bring myself to believe any given proposition when presented with absolutely no evidence.

[whattajoke]

As a non-theist, that is, one who couldn't care less what religious folks choose to believe (as long as its not foisted upon me), they can put all the crosses they want in Manhattan. And baby Buddhas and Vishnu statues and Ra idols or whatever. none of it means a thing to me. Of course, the Port authority owns the site so thats the government and I'm not sure how "legal" that will be (notice: I said LEGAL, not "right.") and the owner of the buildings is Jewish, so the cross is an affront to him.

So, ONCE AGAIN, religion has become a divider on yet another issue. For someone like me, it gets rather tiresome.

[Dimensio]

I've seen the Vietnam Memorial once. At the time I was a cocky little snot (as opposed to the cock big snot that I've since become) and I could not appreciate it as I should have.

I personally prefer simplicity, I would prefer a memorial with a relatively simplistic design rather than one that tries to incorporate every element potentially linked to the disaster. I find scatterings of various individual imagery to be a bit gaudy, and I think that simplicity is itself appropriate for any memorial situation.

[cake_crumb]

Oh...yes, I DO think the reflective surface is important, especially to those trying to understand by projecting their imaginations into the lives of those they knew and loved. Amazing how few words there are in the English language to describe how we deal with experience of Viet Nam. We're already discovering the same lack in our language while trying to describe 9-11 and it's after effects upon all of us.