Posted on 06/15/2002 10:01:26 AM PDT by Ligeia
Edited on 07/12/2004 3:54:43 PM PDT by Jim Robinson. [history]
I should warn you that it may not be what you hoped. Shuckmaster featured it prominimently in his website for about two weeks. Then someone who read it must have told him that it was a truthful look at the confederacy and it hasn't been seen there since.
How about your insistence that Confederates were traitors and seditionists? That's a palpable lie right there, and it's the least of the falsehoods you use. Obviously, you're also lying about being a Southerner. Southerners don't object to being called "boy".
ROFLOL! Good for them both.
Not acording to the Constitution.
Every soldier who served the so-called CSA could have been hung under US law.
As you know, President Lincoln, on the last day of his life refused to allow the treason trials for rebels in leadership positions suggested by Secretary of War Stanton.
Walt
KISSIMMEE, Fla. - The keynote speaker on Confederate Memorial Day drives a pickup truck with the Rebelaires blaringon the tape deck. He wears a slouch hat and a rebel-flag tie. His suit is gray. His skin is black. His words make many Civil War scholars see red.
"The history books were written by Yankees and they've seen fit to leave a lot out," Nelson Winbush tells 40 whites in a barn by the Kissimmee rodeo grounds. "Better than 90,000 blacks fought for the South."
As evidence, Mr, Winbush tells of his slave grandfather; Louis Napoleon Nelson, who went to war with his master's sons and went to his grave in 1934 wearing a rebel uniform. Mr, Winbush says scholars have covered up black loyalty to the South rather than upset Nortnern orthodoxy about the Civil War. "Yankees came way down here to free the slaves and found some black dude shooting their a- for keeps," he says.
When most Americans think of Civil War soldiers, the colors that spring to mind are blue and gray, not black. Until the 1989 movie "Glory," there was little recognition of the 200,000 blacks who fought for the North. Now, many Southerners say, it is time to honor another forgotten group: blacks who served the slave holding Confederacy. What makes this revisionism startling is that several of its leading proponents are blacks who regard their research as liberating.
"There's this caricature of all blacks in the South being victimized and supporting the North," says Edward Smith, a black professor and director of American Studies at American University in Washington. "But we are just as complicated as any people. We're three-dimensional. "
Since Mr. Smith began speaking about black Confederates six years ago, the subject has spawned several books, scores of articles and heated debate on the Internet. Some blacks have joined the Sons of Confederate Veterans and donned gray at Civil War re-enactments. Confederate heritage groups have proposed erecting monuments to black rebels and other "Confederates of color," such as Hispanics and American Indians.
Black Confederates have also become fodder in fights over the rebel battle flag, which flies over the South Carolina statehouse and forms part of Georgia's state banner. When New York Gov. George Pataki recently backed calls to boot Georgia's flag from Albany's display of state flags because of its "racist" component, he quickly roused ire. "As many as 50,000 brave young black men were wounded and killed fighting for the South," wrote Charlie Condon. South Carolina's attorney general in a letter. "Your slander of our region and its historic flag is outrageous and offensive.
But what many historians find outrageous and offensive are the claims being made by men like Mr. Condon Though he later revised his estimate to 50,000 blacks who "served in the Confederate Army," Mr. Smith at American University puts the number of black rebels "actually shooting people" at 30,000. Most historians regard this figure as inflated-by almost 30,000.
"It's pure fantasy," contends James McPherson, a Princeton historian and one of the nation's leading Civil War scholars. Adds Edwin Bearss, historian emeritus at the National Park Service: "It's b.s., wishful thinking." Robert Krick, author of 10 books on the Confederacy, has studied the records of 150,000 Southern soldiers and found fewer than a dozen were black. "Of course, if I documented 12. someone would start adding zeros," he says.
Tainted History?
These and other scholars say claims about black rebels derive from unreliable anecdotes, a blurring of soldiers and laborers, and the rapid spread on the Internet of what Mr. McPherson calls ''pseudohistory.'' Thousands of blacks did accompany rebel troops - as servants, cooks, teamsters and musicians. Most were slaves who served involuntarily; until the final days of the war, the Confederacy staunchly refused to enlist black soldiers.
Some blacks carried guns for their masters and wore spare or castoff uniforms, which may help explain eyewitness accounts of blacks units. But any blacks who actually fought did so unofficially, either out of personal loyalty or self-defense, many historians say.
They also bristle at what they see as the disingenuous twist on political correctness fueling the black Confederate fad. "it's a search for a multicultural Confederacy, a desperate desire to feel better about your ancestors," says Leslie Rowland, a University of Maryland historian. "if you suggest that some blacks supported the South, then you can deny that the Confederacy was about slavery and white supremacy."
David Blight, an Amherst College historian, likens the trend to bygone notions about happy "plantation darkies." Confederate groups invited devoted ex-slaves to reunions and even won Senate approval in 1923 for a "mammy" monument in Washington (it was never built). Black Confederates, Mr. Blight says, are a new and more palatable way to "legitimize the Confederacy."
These and other scholars say claims about black rebels derive from unreliable anecdotes, a blurring of soldiers and laborers, and the rapid spread on the Internet of what Mr. McPherson calls ''pseudohistory.'' Thousands of blacks did accompany rebel troops - as servants, cooks, teamsters and musicians. Most were slaves who served involuntarily; until the final days of the war, the Confederacy staunchly refused to enlist black soldiers.
Some blacks carried guns for their masters and wore spare or castoff uniforms, which may help explain eyewitness accounts of blacks units. But any blacks who actually fought did so unofficially, either out of personal loyalty or self-defense. many historians say.
They also bristle at what they see as the disingenuous twist on political correctness fueling the black Confederate fad. "it's a search for a multicultural Confederacy, a desperate desire to feel better about your ancestors," says Leslie Rowland, a University of Maryland historian. "if you suggest that some blacks supported the South, then you can deny that the Confederacy was about slavery and white supremacy."(AND GOD FORBID WE DO THAT!!!! WHY, lincoln WOULD BE OUTED AS THE TYRANT HE WAS)
David Blight, an Amherst College historian, likens the trend to bygone notions about happy "plantation darkies." Confederate groups invited devoted ex-slaves to reunions and even won Senate approval in 1923 for a "mammy" monument in Washington (it was never built). Black Confederates, Mr. Blight says, are a new and more palatable way to "legitimize the Confederacy."
War Against Stereotypes
But defenders of Confederate heritage say they are simply setting the record straight and battling another stereotype: that anyone who cherishes the Confederacy and its symbols is racist. During Black History Month, the Sons of Confederate Veterans posted a "fact sheet" on its Web page stating that thousands of blacks served the Confederacy "because it was their home. and they hoped for the reward of patriotism."
The SCV's lieutenant commander in chief, Patrick Griffin, says black service to the rebel cause reveals "a certain amount of solidarity" between slaves and masters. "Slavery was not a good thing, but it was part of the culture at the time: You had black and white people fighting to preserve their culture."
Groups like the SCV also make a point of citing blacks who have written on the subject, though that isn't always welcomed by the researchers themselves. "Some people use my material very selectively to promote their contemporary agenda," says Ervin Jordan. Jr., a black professor and archivist at the University of Virginia. For instance, the SCV and others often cite Mr. Jordan's estimate in a 1995 book that up to 15% of Virginia slaves supported the South. But they ignore the book's details of slavery's brutality, including an account of Robert E. Lee ordering his slaves whipped, and overlook Mr. Jordan's nuanced analysis of black rebels' motivation.
"These were people looking out for their own self-interest," he says. For instance, the South won many of the war's early battles and blacks plausibly saw it as shrewd to show support for the winning side.
But Mr. Jordan also resents the flak he has taken from liberal academics and fellow blacks who feel he is "airing dirty laundry" and abetting racists by writing about black loyalty to the South. He cites many historic examples of "people fighting in the forces of tbeir oppressors." such as Indians who scouted for the U.S. Army. "I don't think black Confederates should be pushed back in the closet because they're inconvenient or make us uncomfortable," he says.
Easy Fit
Rebel ancestry isn't uncomfortable at all for the black SCV member in Florida, Nelson Winbush. who fondly recalls his grandfather, Mr. Nelson, and his war tales. "He used to say the Yankees were the dumbest damned people you've ever seen," Mr. Winbush says, telling a story about Union men marcbing straight at rebel guns.
Mr. Winbush's trove of mementos includes pension papers and newspaper clippings describing his grandfather as a cook and servant in the Army, He also foraged for the rebels and, Mr, Winbush believes, "fired rifles like everyone else." though he has no proof. Nor does he-think it matters whether blacks filled combat or support roles. "Their lives were at risk: they served," he says.
His grandfather, Mr. Winbush goes on, grew up playing with white boys on the plantation and felt it was only natural to "go along with his pals" to fight Yankees. After the war, he attended 39 Confederate reunions and became a minor celebrity in his native Tennessee. "They all had a spot in their heart for the good old darky. and he loved them devotedly," a Tennessee paper wrote when Mr. Nelson died. Asked about the tone of such reports, Mr, Winbush shrugs. "Those were just the times." he says.
Complicated Times
Times have changed. Mr. Winbush, a retired teacher and assistant principal, once taught many of the men who now belong to his SCV group, which has been renamed in honor of his grandfather. Mr. Winbush's fellow members also welcome his Confederate Memorial Day address, which includes a defense of states' rights and of his grandfather's commander. Nathan Bedford Forrest. an oft-reviled figure who was a slave trader and imperial wizard of the Ku Klux Klan.
"We finally have someone who can give a different point of view and no one can say it's just another ignorant redneck trying to promote racism", says John Carroll, a founding member of the Kissimmee SCV camp.
Mr, Winbush has taken his message to groups across the South and appeared in a pro-Confederate video. He now plans to place a rebel veteran's headstone by his grandfather's grave. "I'm an individual, just like him." he says. driving to Kissimmee's cemetery to adorn rebel graves with battle flags. "People did what they thought was appropriate in that war, black and white, and I'm doing the same now."
He turns up his tape deck as the Rebelaires sing about the feelings of a black Confederate veteran: "You may not believe me, but things was just that way, Black is nothing other than a darker shade of rebel gray."
Mr. Winbush smiles. "That song tells it all," he says.
There you are Walt the whole article, the good and the bad. Of course I know you must have not seen the whole article, else you would have posted it. Goodness forbid you wouldn't try to slide something by like Ditto's 30 million slaves, now would you? So let's see. We've got a black man whose grandfather fought for the South(personal experience) and a yankee doctor among countless other anecdotes and you've got.... oh yeah, Mcpherson and a Park Ranger. That's even < /sarcasm> Something I found interesting from the article
"if you suggest that some blacks supported the South, then you can deny that the Confederacy was about slavery and white supremacy."
AND GOD FORBID WE DO THAT!!!!
I just want to keep it simple, stupid.
Walt
There is no credible evidence that more than a handful of blacks willingly fought for the CSA.
I can imagine that this Mr. Winbush gets a big thrill having his hand pumped at the meetings of hate groups like the Sons of Confederate Veterans.
But I am not sure how his evidence counterbalances the words of Lee, Davis or the CSA Congess, none of whom appeared to have the slightest inkling of black soldiers in CSA ranks. And what does it say for the honor of the CSA if 30,000 blacks fought for the CSA but blacks who fought for the USA were subjected to death or slavery, along with their white officers?
Seriously, how do you address the fact that -- I guess Mr. Winbush forgot to cover this with his tissue of lies -- the CSA congress passed a law that said that blacks that fought against them would be put to death or enslaved.
Oh, right. They didn't know all these blacks were fighting for them, it being against the laws of the so-called CSA and all.
Walt
The quotes are in this thread. Show they are out of context.
Walt
You mean there's no evidence presented by McPherson and the park ranger. What really is amazing to me is the number of men with doctorate degrees readily presenting evidence of these brave men and women and I'm supposed to take the word of a park ranger. Tell you what, I've suggested it before and I doubt you'll bother even now, why not try The Confederate Negro by Dr. James Brewer. Written back in the late 60s, it shows more than just anecdotal evidence of the blacks support of the Confederacy. BTW, Walt, he was black. But unless it agrees with your yankee revisionism foisted upon us by people like McPherson, it doesn't count, right?
Billbears how could there be 30,000 black rebels in the firing line when there were fewer than 16,000 free black males of military age in the entire confederacy? Did each of them enlist twice?
What you ignore every time this comes up is that Jefferson Davis, Robert E. Lee and the CSA congress have no apparent knowledge of what you swear as gospel. It's got nothing to do with historians and everything to do with the historical record.
You won't touch that because it won't back up your fantasy.
Walt
Look to Fort Mill, SC(among other locations) and the monument dedicated by Confederate Veterans for the slaves that served with honor
Several of the Confederate States did allow for enlistment of blacks, Tennessee being one in particular . Also many of the men came straight off their farms, started companies within their own towns without being officially tied to the Confederate Army. There are plenty of reasons and you as well know that. Just because official documentation didn't come down from Richmond until late in the War doesn't mean it didn't happen. As I said, the South in the beginning took a different outlook on what roles the general government should play. And micromanaging their soldiers, even to the point of punishing them for freeing slaves, was not something that was done so 'efficiently' as lincoln did
Is that why it passed a conscription act that it forced on the states in April, 1862?
Add some meat to your posts. Show some numbers and some contemporary sources.
Walt
I don't know, seems the South was just following suit after lincoln's move in April of '61 (even under the Rebellion Act it was still conscription no matter what you call it) and then of course we can't forget the Draft Riots in '63 can we?
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