[tutstar]

This is a real piece of work. Looks like things are not going to be calm here for a while.

[twntaipan]

Comments about Muhammad originate in key Islamic source, profs say
By Norm Miller & Joni B. Hannigan
Jun 13, 2002

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Former Muslims speak at press conference
Scholars Ergun Caner, right, and his brother, Emir, answer questions from reporters during a news conference hosted by Baptist Press as the SBC met in its 145th session in St. Louis' America's Center. The Caners wrote "Unveiling Islam: An Insider's Look at Muslim Life and Beliefs," a new book by Kregel Publications. Ergun is assistant professor of theology and church history at Criswell College, Dallas. Emir is assistant professor of church history and Anabaptist studies at Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary, Wake Forest, N.C. by Van Payne

ST. LOUIS (BP)--Two former Muslims responded June 12 to complaints from Islamic groups that a speaker's comments at the Southern Baptist Pastors' Conference in St. Louis were "bigoted" and "hateful."

National media have widely reported that Jerry Vines, pastor of First Baptist Church, Jacksonville, Fla., described Muhammad as a "demon-possessed pedophile" during a June 10 sermon and that Vines inferred that Islam teaches the destruction of non-Muslims.

Clarifying that Vines not only quoted from their recent book, "Unveiling Islam," Emir and Ergun Caner said Vines also quoted from the Hadith, a highly respected source for Islamic teaching among Muslim clerics and followers worldwide. The Hadith itself verifies that Muhammad married a 6-year-old girl and consummated the marriage when she was 9, the professor-brothers said.

"It's simply a matter of quoting [Islamic] sources," said Emir Caner, an assistant professor of church history and Anabaptist studies at Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary in Wake Forest, N.C. "If we are wrong in our understanding of the Islamic scriptures, we would be happy to be corrected."

The specific Hadith citation concerning Muhammad's pedophilia is in volume 7, book 6, number 64 and 65, said Ergun Caner, an assistant professor of theology and church history at Criswell College in Dallas.

Both Emir and Ergun Caner were Sunni Muslims who became Christians in 1982.

"The comments in question cannot be considered bigotry when they come from Islamic writings," Ergun Caner said.

A lengthy passage from the Hadith, volume 1, book 1, chapter 1, shows that Muhammad himself believed he was under demonic influence, but it notes that Muhammad's wife is the one who deemed his experience as "divine," Ergun Caner said.

Concerning terrorism and Islamic jihad, Emir Caner noted variant interpretations by Muslims themselves. Some see jihad as a "spiritual war," and others, "physical," he said.

"Some Muslims want to allegorize their own scriptures because they don't want to defend jihad," Emir Caner said. "But if you take the Koran at its word, or Muhammad at his word, then you'll find physical jihad."

The highest level of Muslim heaven -- which has 70 perpetual virgins on couches -- is reserved for Muslims who "shed their blood," said Ergun Caner said, referencing Hadith 135.

Islam's tilt toward violence, Emir Caner said, also is reflected in the Koran: "Slay the enemy where you find him, Surah 9.92," whereas Christians are commanded to love their enemies.

"A so-called Christian who bombs an abortion clinic or shoots an abortionist and says God told him to do it does that act against the Bible," Ergun Caner said. "But the Muslim who commits acts of violence in jihad does so with the approval of Muhammad.

"When 9/11 happened, we were all shocked. But where was the international outrage when jihad killed 3 million people in Sudan?" Ergun Caner asked.

As former Sunni Muslims, the Caners cite the major differences between Islam and Christianity as the "personalness" of God, and "grace as opposed to works."

"Jesus Christ ... is ultimately personal and wants to have a relationship with me," Ergun Caner said.

The Koran says Allah "is as close as your jugular vein, which is a place of fear, not of faith," Emir Caner said. "As Muslims, grace was a foreign word to us," he said, having noted in an earlier interview that the only way a Muslim can be assured of heaven outside of dying in jihad is whether his good works outweigh his bad ones.

"So do my beliefs dictate that good Muslims will go to hell?" Ergun Caner asked. "The answer to that is: Good Southern Baptists will go to hell. The issue at hand is not one of religious practice, it is one of personal relationship."

Christianity is "exclusivistic" in its claims, but universal in its appeal to others, Ergun Caner said. Christianity versus Islam is not a "we win, you lose" outcome, he said. "We want to tell all Muslims everywhere that they can be freed from 'scales of Islam.'"

He noted, "Our culture is suffering the Oprah-ization of America, or the idea that we all just need one big Oprah group hug and there will be peace.

"But I say there will never be peace, not in Jerusalem, not in the Holy Land, not until the Prince of Peace, Jesus Christ, comes back."
--30--
(BP) photo posted in the BP Photo Library at http://www.bpnews.net. Photo title: FORMER MUSLIMS SPEAK AT PRESS CONFERENCE.



[ ]

[Shooter 2.5]

"Said Bolden, "If we were even to read the history of our country, the United States of America, we would find that up to a hundred years ago, marriage was legal at the age of ten."

Legal maybe, moral no. I don't recall any of my American heroes marrying anyone in their teens. Most of them made their start in the world, became successful and then married someone their own age. And only one wife.

[Torie]

Vines' comments were execrable. Islam is not above criticism, but to call Mohammed a demon possessed pedophile is a subjective comment, incendiary, and achieves no useful purpose.

[galt-jw]

well, the muslims DID manage to speak out...but never in regards to condemning resoundingly islamic terror...so shut your pie hole, lizard.

[Sabertooth]

The questions he asked stemmed from the comments made by Reverend Jerry Vines. Said Vines, "Islam was founded by Mohammed, a demon-possessed pedophile who had 12 wives and his last one was a 9 year old girl."

In his sermon before a packed mosque, Bolden took special aim not so much at the words Vines used by Vines but at the ignorance that fueled them. He chastised Vines for speaking about a culture he knows little of and perhaps for knowing even less of his own.

Said Bolden, "If we were even to read the history of our country, the United States of America, we would find that up to a hundred years ago, marriage was legal at the age of ten."

Doesn't sound like a denial to me.

[tutstar]

pinging to the latest, text of the ad appearing in tomorrow's paper will be posted next.

[concerned about politics]

- After maintaining silence for several days the local Muslim community is finally speaking out about the controversy created by Reverend Jerry Vines earlier in the week at the Southern Baptist Convention.

Have they set a date to speak out about Bin Ladin yet? They haven't? Why not? Maybe the Minister was right, aye?

"How can one be demon possessed and tell us to live in peace and harmony? Is that a demon possessed person?"

He's talking about himself, right? Kill the infidel? Isn't that what they believe? Doersn't that make them the demons? Huh?

In addition to addressing followers of the Muslim faith on Friday, a full page ad will run in the Florida Times Union on Saturday and will feature a letter from Bolden to the Reverend Vines. The letter talks about how offensive Vines' language was to all Muslims and asks him to clear the air by meeting with Bolden.

Typical liberalism. Use the politics of personal destruction. Boy, these folks take their terrorism training seriously. Hillary must be their new U.S. Allah, aye?

I sure hope the Baptists hold their guns up on this one. Truth is truth. If it's too politically incorrect for the thought police, too bad!!

[weegee]

Sorry, I was misled to this thread by the headline. I thought that the muslim community had finally decided it worthy of their time to speak out against the suicide bombers in Palestine, Al-Quaida, the Taliban, OBL, etc.

Are they denying that the statement made was accurate?

[xm177e2]

The questions he asked stemmed from the comments made by Reverend Jerry Vines. Said Vines, "Islam was founded by Mohammed, a demon-possessed pedophile who had 12 wives and his last one was a 9 year old girl."

Once again, I ask anyone to dispute the facts I've emboldened (demons are not something that can be factually proven or disproven, so I'll leave that out)

[The Great Satan]

The Reverend Vines deserves kudos for telling it like it is. It seems the facade of the "religion of peace" is crumbling more and more everyday. As long as there are still idiots like Johnelle Bryant in our bureaucracies, the job isn't done -- which means, the job still isn't done, not by a long shot. Islam must be held in universal contempt if we are to move forward in the War on Terrorism, just as moral clarity on its secular alter ego, Nazism, was essential for a successful outcome to Hitler's War. Anyone who publicly speaks out and shines the spotlight on Islam's true nature -- be it Steve Emerson, Bernard Lewis, Ann Coulter, Daniel Pipes, Victor Davis Hanson, V. S. Naipaul, Oriana Fallaci, Salman Rushdie, Andrew Sullivan, Pim Fortuyn, or Rev. Vines, or Alan Keyes on MSNBC tonight, is a hero in the struggle between civilization and barbarism.

[MissAmericanPie]

Since they wouldn't open their mouths on 9-11, they can keep their yaps shut now and forever more as far as I am concerned.

[spokanite]

The Rev. Vines needs our thoughts and prayers. His church needs to hear from us as well. Call or send flowers in support of this man who stands up for what he believes.

[Cicero]

It's glaringly obvious that Rev. Vines's statement particularly upsets them because it is true. They don't deny it.

As Muslims have expanded into new areas, they have repeatedly shown a pattern of misrepresentation and falsification followed by violent imposition of their views as soon as they are in a position to enforce them.

The case of Ayesha is typical. While they are in the minority, living in a country where sex with a nine-year-old is considered pedophilia, they would prefer not to talk about the matter publicly. But when they get reach a majority, then it is openly professed as an article of religious faith, and everyone is required to ADMIRE it. What a lovely, romantic relationship between Mohammed and Ayesha! In fact, I recall finding exactly that sentiment in a book I read many years ago--I'm afraid I forget the title.

Needless to say, using Mohammed as a model of virtuous behavior leads to some pretty vicious results, including the habit of multiple wives and concubines, the abuse of women, instant divorce without responsibility, and much more.

Rev. Vines's offense was to talk about these matters publicly, when Muslims in America are still at the stage of being quiet about them. And of course he used the wrong word to describe it, because Muslims find the marriage admirable.

[lizma]

"Islam was founded by Mohammed, a demon-possessed pedophile who had 12 wives and his last one was a 9 year old girl."

Works for me.

For further insight into this enlightened culture see Islam and Women.

A whole lot of sick puppyism goin on.

[Dec31,1999]

Islamic Center President Shakur Bolden addressed the public Friday in an attempt to undo the damage done to the Muslim community. Bolden began by asking his followers "How can one be demon possessed and tell us to live in peace and harmony? Is that a demon possessed person?"

Islam: A religion of peace. And harmony.

Perhaps we could still sell the Brooklyn Bridge while it's still here.

[lawdog]

Shoot, for a second there I thought they were gonna' denounce the terrorists. Never mind.

[Don Myers]

bttt

[cascademountaineer]

Muslims say that they are concerned about the damage that could be done from the comments that the Reverend made.

Okay maybe thats a legitimate concern. But they should also be concerned about the damage that is being done to their religion in the public perception by extremists.

I dont think anyone really cares what people believe in as long as no one goes around ramming airplanes into building and blowing up pizza parlors. That tends to have a far bigger impact on people perception than anything said by a marginally well known minister.

I think youre probably right, this issue is probably going to be heated in that community for awhile.

[rebelsoldier]

Said is as full of shit as his religion. Let him prove that marriages at the age of ten were common in early America. It can't get any more "serious" between Muslims and Americans. They mass murdered thousands of helpless innocent Americans like the goddamned cowardly sons of bitches they are. Bring it on, please.

[WarSlut]

"Muhammad is God's apostle. Those who follow him are ruthless to the unbelievers but merciful to one another." -- (Surah 48:29)

"Slay them wherever you find them...Idolatry is worse than carnage...Fight against them until idolatry is no more and God's religion reigns supreme." -- (Surah 2:190-)

"Seek out your enemies relentlessly." -- (Surah 4:103-)

"Believers, take neither Jews nor Christians for your friends." -- (Surah 5:51)

"...make war on the leaders of unbelief...Make war on them: God will chastise them at your hands and humble them. He will grant you victory over them..." -- (Surah 9:12-)

"Make war on them until idolatry shall cease and God's religion shall reign supreme." -- (Surah 8:36-)

"If you do not fight, He will punish you sternly, and replace you by other men." -- (Surah 9:37-)."

"Prophet make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites and deal rigorously with them. Hell shall be their home." -- (Surah 9:73)

"Believers, make war on the infidels who dwell around you. Deal firmly with them." -- (Surah 9:121-)

"Slay them wherever you find them...Idolatry is worse than carnage...Fight against them until idolatry is no more and God's religion reigns supreme." -- (Surah 2:190-)

""The only true faith in God's sight is Islam." -- (Surah 3:19)

KNOW ISLAM. READ THE KORAN.