Posted on 06/12/2002 12:00:31 PM PDT by Ernest_at_the_Beach
ST. LOUIS - A former Southern Baptist Convention president stirred interfaith tumult when he described Muhammad, Islam's revered founder, as a "demon-possessed pedophile."
The Rev. Jerry Vines made the comments Monday night at the Southern Baptist Pastors Conference, drawing strong denunciation from Muslim leaders Tuesday when his statements were publicized.
But the Rev. Jack Graham, the new president of the Southern Baptist Convention, and the Rev. James Merritt, outgoing president, supported Vines.
Hodan Hassan, a spokeswoman for the Washington-based Council for American-Islamic Relations, said Vines' comments were divisive and inaccurate.
"This kind of hate-filled rhetoric is very shocking," Hassan said. "It is especially surprising to see it coming from someone of that stature making such a statement concerning a religion that is practiced by one-fifth of the world's population."
Vines, senior pastor of the First Baptist Church of Jacksonville, Fla., deplored the rising tide of pluralism.
"Today, people are saying all religions are the same," Vines said. "They would have us believe Islam is just as good as Christianity. But I'm here to tell you, ladies and gentlemen, that Islam is not as good as Christianity. Christianity was founded by the virgin-born Lord Jesus Christ. Islam was founded by Muhammad, a demon-possessed pedophile who had 12 wives and his last one was a 9-year-old girl."
Muslims maintain that they are the descendants of the Judeo-Christian progenitor Abraham and serve the same God as Jews and Christians, even though they call him Allah.
But Vines said: "Allah is not Jehovah. Jehovah is not going to turn you into a terrorist that'll try to bomb people and take the lives of thousands and thousands of people."
Hassan said, "I would hope that responsible people of the Southern Baptist Convention would deliver a strong denunciation of Reverend Vines' comments."
But during a news conference Tuesday, Graham quoted from Unveiling Islam, which was written by two former Muslims who are professors at conservative Baptist theological schools. Authors Ergun Caner, an assistant professor at Criswell College in Dallas, and Emir Caner, an assistant professor at Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary in Wake Forest, N.C., said Muhammad had numerous concubines and 13 wives, including the 9-year-old girl, Graham said.
Syad Ahsani of Arlington, Southwest regional chairman of the American Muslim Alliance, said Muhammad was betrothed to the child, which was a common practice; however, such marriages weren't consummated until children reached adolescence.
Hassan said it is not known when Muhammad's marriage was consummated.
Muhammad was involved in polygamy, but so were early Jewish leaders, others said.
Selod Faroog, an orthopedic surgeon and an Islamic spokesman in Fort Worth, said: "People who can't face the truth come out and make accusations like this. If Muhammad was heavily involved in multiple wives, he wouldn't have had time to spend all night praying like tradition says."
Reaction to Vines' comment came as the annual meeting formally began with about 9,600 messengers, or delegates. President Bush addressed the Baptists by satellite Tuesday morning, praising them for their belief that religion should not be separated from political life.
Later, 12 gay activists from the California-based SoulForce, perennial protesters at the convention, were arrested as they tried to disrupt Merritt's convention message. Some protesters shouted, "Please hear us. ... God loves his gay and lesbian children," before they were carried away by police and charged with trespassing motivated by religious discrimination.
Outside, 37 people were arrested when they refused to obey a police order not to turn away from the America's Center. They were charged with failing to obey a police officer.
Merritt worked the protesters into his sermon, saying they are examples of the nation's "culture war" going on in the nation.
"We love homosexuals," he said. "God loves homosexuals, but he loves them too much to leave them homosexuals."
Still, some Southern Baptists said Vines' comments could hurt efforts for Muslims and Christians to work together.
"That language is so offensive that it tears down any bridge we might have to speak to Muslims about Christianity," said Bruce Prescott, executive director of Oklahoma Mainstream Baptists, a moderate group.
Even some conservatives who agree with Vines' assessment had reservations about his statements.
Richard Land, director of the Southern Baptist Ethics & Religious Liberty Commission, said, "I agree with Dr. Vines: There is no way to salvation except through Jesus Christ." But Vines' language differed from what he would use, Land said.
Albert Mohler, president of the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary in Louisville, Ky., said that Muhammad is a complex figure and that he did not know enough about his life to comment on the pedophile accusation.
Baptists have angered other religious groups with their statements and tactics. Some Baptist congregations prayed for the conversion of Muslims to Christianity during Ramadan, a period for religious observances in Islam.
Baptists distributed literature on how to convert Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons, which they describe as "cults," in 2000.
In 1999, some Baptists publicly called for prayers during Jewish holy days for conversion of Jews to Christianity.
In other action Tuesday, Baptist moderates asked that Southern Baptist missionaries who were hired under older Baptist Faith and Message Statements be allowed to continue serving even if they refuse to affirm the newer, more controversial 2000 Baptist Faith and Message.
The requests were referred to the International Mission Board and the North American Mission Board, effectively killing them.
Another motion asked the Southern Baptist Convention to recognize only one state convention in each state. Texas, Virginia and Missouri have competing state conventions.
If approved, it could severely affect the Baptist General Convention of Texas, which is controlled by moderates. An alternative convention, the Southern Baptists of Texas, led by conservatives, is strongly supported by the national Southern Baptist Convention.
Staff writer Brett Hoffman contributed to this report.
Sahih Bukhari, Volume 7, Book 62 (Wedlock, Marriage (Nikaah)), Number 64:
Narrated 'Aisha:
that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old, and then she remained with him for nine years (i.e., till his death).
Volume 7, Book 62, Number 65:
Narrated 'Aisha:
that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old. Hisham said: I have been informed that 'Aisha remained with the Prophet for nine years (i.e. till his death)." what you know of the Quran (by heart)'
All said to discredit the idea that war and mass murder is a "religion" thing. Even Napoleon was somewhere between deism and atheism.
Though you do not find any stories of Jesus or any of the Apostles going on killing sprees or ethnic cleansing or Conquering.
The point is that non-religious folks have done far more harm to innocents. Look at China today.
Though he himself once said something like "If I had to chose a religion; the sun, giver of life would be my God." Show you where he was at....Agnostic or Atheist, maybe Deist.
Anas bin Malik said, "The Prophet used to visit all his wives in a round, during the day and night and they were eleven in number." I asked Anas, "Had the Prophet the strength for it?" Anas replied, "We used to say that the Prophet was given the strength of thirty (men)." And Sa'id said on the authority of Qatada that Anas had told him about nine wives only (not eleven).
Volume 1, Book 4, Number 229:
Narrated 'Aisha:
I used to wash the traces of Janaba (semen) from the clothes of the Prophet and he used to go for prayers while traces of water were still on it (water spots were still visible). Volume 1, Book 5, Number 258:
Narrated 'Aisha:
Whenever the Prophet took the bath of Janaba (sexual relation or wet dream) he asked for the Hilab or some other scent. He used to take it in his hand, rub it first over the right side of his head and then over the left and then rub the middle of his head with both hands.
It is used by many muslim sites, and also www.answering-islam.org and www.faithfreedom.org/alisina/
I cannot question the accuracy of your statement.
My sister and her husband, an SB pastor are there. She posted us last night about the queers demonstrating - her first experience in seeing riot police arrayed.
Now a man with his thoughts in order (as well as his stones) tells the ugly truth about the "religion of peace."
Touche' Dubya
Lots of unfamiliar posters on this most excellent thread.
Saw you and Arthur and Cato, but good to see several unknowns.
I am Orthodox Christian, of Baptist heritage, and it makes me proud to see my ancestors make good use of their bully pulpit.
Or even and also a sound file?
Goedel was not an agnostic.
He spent the last years of his life
working on a mathematical proof
of the existence of God.
There was an article about this
in the New York Times
a few years back.
Speaks volumes doesn't it?
I already have 2 copies. :-)
That is why I wanted everybody here to read it for themselves. It will certainly change your mind about Islam.
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