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I can't handle all this stupidity any longer! A stripped down Su costs 8 mill - don't y'all realize the cost of a modern fighter comes from its avionics? A 15/16 would run under 8 million if all you wanted were engines and wings!

And this, "The Su manuevers well at airshows" analysis is c$%p! If I had to bet my life on a plane, I'd bet on the 15. Simulated dogfights show you whatever the rule-makers want it to show. When I flew F-4s, we regularly beat F-15s - during the one year where I kept track, I had a 3:1 kill ratio against them. The F-15 was a better plane, but we were using better tactics.

And dogfighting is disappearing. Yeah, I know those predictions were around before Vietnam - but they are coming true. Airpower made a lot of boasts about bombing, but it took PGMs to make them come true. The missiles & systems being worked today mean traditional dogfighting is over. I miss it - but I'll face the facts. No one gives a tinker's damn how fast you can move the plane's nose - with helmet mounted sights, and the ability in the very near future to use off-board systems for missile cueing - dogfights are over!

And let's talk a little about stealth. One thing that can keep you in the fight is being small enough radar wise to make it difficult - the Su (like the 15) is a flying tennis court! You might as well strap neon signs to your plane saying "SHOOT ME!"

I wish the people on this forum would realize that at least some of us working acquisition & test don't give a damn about contractors or their profits - we only care about winning the next war, and we know a hell of a lot more about what it takes than these bozos.

I agree with everyone of your assertions... every single one. I just thought the article was interesting and worth some thought.

And while it is true most, if not all, future conflicts will be BVR it should be noted that the SUs come armed with the AA-12 ADDER (Rateka-77) AMRAAM-ski that is superior to the AIM-120 AMRAAM, especially due to its control surfaces that have made people refer to the AIM-120 as 'conventional,' plus the fact the R77 is faster, more manouevrable, can fly 50km more than the AMRAAM, and can switch between three radars in flight! Thus the chances of a Sukhoi finding itself face to face is low, and it can handle itself extremely well at BVR (according to German tests better than the Eagle).

And as for the much touted manoeuvrability of the Sukhoi, all it is is just for show. It is an airshow trick that cannot be used in real life with a full combat load, and its only purpose is to wow spectators and make people want to buy the Flanker. However the reason the Sukhoi does not need the 'cobra manouevre' and all that trick stuff is because of this... the AA-11 ARCHER (Rateka-73). This is the second best short-range missile in the world (the best is the Israeli Python) which is so advanced that it can engage targets LATERAL to the jet! All the pilot needs to do is look at the target and his helmet targeting system does the rest!

Thus the Sukhoi carries an appropriate long stick the R-77 (no.1 worldwide, although some say the Phoenix is a tie) and for short range scraps it packs R-73 (no.2 worldwide)!

And with trained pilots it can mess with the best F-15 there is.

And as for its radar cross section, the Su upgraded terminator is actually smaller in radar than the F-15 (even though it is bigger than the Eagle in size). Actually here is an exerpt from the article:It has a huge internal fuel capacity and, like the F-14, can carry a lot of very large bombs in attack roles—neatly hidden from radar detection between the podded engine nacelles. In addition, its external shape results in a naturally low radar signature without compromising its performance.

Also Russia gave India an upgrade for some of its fighters that could coat them with RAM that would reduce their cross section in radar by 70%.

Thus physical size being a detriment in terms of radar detection is not such a big issue.

In conclusion i do agree with most of your assertions, although for different reasons. I agree all those airshow manoeuvres are for show, and so are the acrobatics.... but because the Su-30 does not need them! It has some of the best BVR capabilities,and in short range it will be sending an R-73 not trying to 'stamd on tis tail.'

I also completely believe that training is everything. Think of what happened in 'nam when the F-4 phantom pilots went for Top Gun training... migs were falling from the skies left right and center! Training is key, and that is one of many reasons why the American airforce is to be feared and respected.

however my point was that if the SUs can be an efficient stop gap until the raptors come about then they would be something to THINK about.

"The Su manuevers well at airshows"

Great post. I hear that all the time too, and have some mpegs of the Su doing a "cobra." The jet basically pitches at a 90 degree angle on top of its engines suddenly then drops back down as quick as it went up. Thats pretty cool...but could any airforce buffs tell me how moves like this would help in a real battle? I would appreciate the analysis. I love this type of stuff, I even wrote a goofy short story in high school about captured airforce pilots escaping and stealing Mig-29s that happened to be near by, lol!