Posted on 06/05/2002 11:51:09 AM PDT by sheltonmac
Actually, the 69th week culminated with what is referred to as Christ's triumphal entry, or the public advent of "Messiah the Prince." That fulfills Zech. 9:9, "Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee..." Prior to that He had consistently told His disciples not to make known anything about Him and His Messiahship. Our Lord's last visit to Jerusalem was the crisis point in His life on earth. He was publically proclaimed as King and Messiah, and as such He rode to His death on the cross. Therefore, this fulfills the angel's prophecy in Dan. 9:25, "unto Messiah the Prince." His baptism does not do this. Furthermore the date of His entry can be established and the number of days some scholars have calculated the interval from the issuing of the decree to rebuild Jerusalem and the public advent of "Messiah the Prince" to be exactly to the day 173,880 days, or 7 times 69 prophetic years of 360 days. This is the first 69 weeks of the angel Gabriel's prophecy.
You are correct on the "gap." The prophetic clock only runs when God is dealing with Israel, which He isn't doing right now since God set Israel aside temporarily as He forms the church, the Body of Christ. The "gap" started with the public advent of Messiah the Prince and will end with the "prince that shall come" who "shall confirm the covenant with many for one week." This "gap" will continue until following the rapture of the Body of Christ. An example is found in Isa. 9:6, "For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder." The colon here represents the gap that now spans nearly 2000 years since the second part of this verse is yet to be fulfilled.
The correct number is 200,000,000 and the only reference is in Rev 9:16...John does not say they were in fact horses. He says what he saw in the revelation looked to him like horses. Not quite the same degree of specific certainty as has been discussed here.
There's all sorts of disagreement on these horses and even the number of them. Some feel these are the same as the locusts that were "like unto horses" in Rev. 9:1-11, which is a definite possibility. Both these locust/horses and the horses of the horsemen of verses 16-19 are supernatural entities. The number is considered by some as meaning an uncountable number, such as in Rev. 5:11 where it states the number of the congregation around the throne is "ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands." Pretty impressive number. Ps. 68:17 tells us the "chariots of God are twenty thousand, even thousands of thousands." I would imagine the "chariots" of God are not exactly like the Roman chariot Ben Hur drove. I choose to take what is stated in Rev. 9 as literal not figurative.
It's not enough to "believe the Bible." Mormons, JWs, Moonies, and unitarian pentecostals all "believe the Bible." Christians believe what the Bible teaches as well. Now, the foundational creeds of the church are handy summaries of what the Bible teaches concerning God, man, salvation, and eschatlogy. The creeds affirm that our Lord will physically return and we will be raised. The creeds have little to say beyond that, however, concerning the anticipated course of history.
I'm not much into the creeds, primarily because our focus should be on the Scriptures themselves.
OK, I will try one more time to explain this to you. The word "now" in the verse we were discussing does not prove by itself the overall teaching of Premillinialism, but it does answer the question about what Christ meant in the context of that verse. Therefore it does answer the question you originally asked. I noticed that you don't deny that it is there or offer any explanation for it's meaning, but choose to ignore it entirely. It is there for a reason.
The new covenant required Christ's death and shedding of blood a priori. In hindsight, this is abundantly clear even in the law of Moses. There is simply no way for Christ to have ever come to earth for any reason except that death pursuant to the establishment of the new covenenant. Therefore the "now" in that verse can not refer to a change in direction on the part of God.
This is what I was referring to you not being interested in a true discussion, because you are not answering my questions and you are rebutting points that I don't hold to and agree with you about. Just more straw men to easily knock down. Can't you stay on the topic? If you have another question for me about Premillinialism or Dispensationalism then ask. But most of your assumptions about my beliefs are incorrect. I don't believe God ever changed his mind. Christ said he came only to Israel. In fact, over and over he said it. He had to present himself to them and be rejected by that generation of Jews, but God doesn't punish all generations of Jews for the actions of that generation. Of course Christ's death was foretold in the OT. That proves that he didn't change his mind. Your arguments don't prove your views and don't disprove mine.
Finally, someone who has it RIGHT!!! Thanks for a very clear exposition.
in response to my comment It's not enough to "believe the Bible." Mormons, JWs, Moonies, and unitarian pentecostals all "believe the Bible." Christians believe what the Bible teaches as well.
Is it just a coincidence that cults uniformly violate one or more of the standards mentioned in the creeds? Or is it possible that we can learn from godly folks who have gone before us, in order to go further in our own lives? You might enjoy G K Chesterton's short story "The Broken Sword." The villain "read his own Bible" by himself -- and found in it such things as harem keeping! The bottom line is, that we as Christians are a body, we need one another, and we need to read God's word together!
For that matter, even the Jews of that generation who repented were saved through Christ. The Mosaic covenant is gone, and with it earth-bound nationalism.
Daniel clearly tells us that the kingdom would be set up in the time of Rome. That kingdom is a spiritual kingdom that will never pass away. Of what use is a temporary, earthly kingdom when you have an eternal, spiritual kingdom?
Which is more real and lasting, physical things which you can feel and touch, or spiritual things?
I agree that believers need to fellowship (Eph. 3:9; Phil. 1:3-5) and that fellowship can actually be ministry (2Cor. 8:4). But fellowship can be potentially harmful and disruptive if the believers aren't like minded. We're even told to separate ourselves from those who claim to be believers, but engage in activities in their churches that lead you to believe otherwise. As you state, they may use the Bible, and even believe the Bible, but the focus is not on the Lord Jesus Christ. That doesn't mean to become hermits, but to fellowship with those you agree doctrinally with.
Wow, now THAT is a new one on me! I didn't know any dispensationalists believed that.....I know I never did...
I see an overlap in Romans, the wrath of 70AD on the Jews, and grace to all who believed.
To believe the preterist view is to use extra-biblical information rather than the Word of God.
Perhaps you have been misled as to what exactly the Preterist view is, or perhaps you are just repeating what you have heard from somewhere else, but you couldn't be more wrong! I'll use myself as an example. I believe the preterist view, and I believe it based solely on the Word of God.
The Word is clear as to why God is now dealing with Jew and Gentile on equal footing rather than dealing with the Jew only. Unfortunately, people read the Scriptures, or more likely, what someone has written about the Scriptures, with biases that cloud and distort the true meaning. If 70 AD concluded the Jewish program and God said the church, the Body of Christ is now Israel, why does John not mention this in the book of the Revelation?
You're kidding, right? A brief review of Preterist belief will answer that one for you. The Woman and Babylon are both symbolic pictures of the Jews and/or Jerusalem in Revelation.
There is nothing in Scripture about the destruction of the temple in 70 AD, therefore any meaning attached to that event is based on the will of man, not of God, and is from extra-biblical sources, such as Josephus. You know what it says about adding to the Word of God!
Again I ask, you are kidding, right??? Have you ever even read Matthew? Try starting with Chapter 23 and see what Jesus said about the Temple...
“When the LORD returns to Zion, they will see it with their own eyes. Burst into songs of joy together, you ruins of Jerusalem, for the LORD has comforted his people, he has redeemed Jerusalem.”
How can you not see this as a promise specifically to the nation and people of Israel?
The first (non-preterist) commentary I found states that this passage is Messianic in nature. It is a promise, and it has been fulfilled. Christ came! Who believes that this is unfulfilled?
I find the above sentence about years beneath the analyetical skills of a number of 12 year olds I know. I certainly don't find it a great point.
You find it simple, beneath a 12-year old, and 'not great'.....and yet you didn't rebut it! *heh*
Please, can we keep this as a nice friendly debate and leave the personal derogatory remarks offline? Thanks...
*LOL* Frankly I find my old dispensational pre-mill beliefs much more comfortable, but thanks for asking. :o)
Thanks for the correction on the number.
So it is literally 200 million, but it is only symbolically horses? *LOL*
BLESSINGS,
No no no....I said I found my OLD dispensational and pre-mill beliefs much more comfortable. But just because they are comfortable doesn't mean that they are in line with scripture. :o)
We are out of town this weekend ourselves, but I'm taking along many downloaded books on eschatology...lots I am still (re)learning!
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