Posted on 06/05/2002 11:51:09 AM PDT by sheltonmac
Talk about arrogance and pride! You think those criticizing dispensationalism are full of themselves and believe they have all the answers, yet you turn around and make the very claim you accuse us of making. Do you honestly believe that we have a hatred for the Jews? We certainly don't claim to have a brotherhood with any non-believer, Jew or Gentile, but that has nothing to do with hatred. Our prayer is that the Jews—and all people, for that matter—will come to a saving knowledge of Christ. All who claim Christ as Lord and Savior will be welcomed as our brothers and sisters! "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus" (Gal. 3:28).
"Think about this: Yeshua was a Jew!"
And Yeshua was rejected by..... Anyone? Anyone? That's right, the Jews! "He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him. But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God."(John 1:10-13).
There is a great amount of confusion on what dispensationalism is. It is a method of Bible study, as you indicate, but it is much more than understanding pre-mil eschatology.
Regarding your question, dispensationalists do not hold that the establishment of Israel in 1948 is the fulfillment of prophecy. Weird-o's like Van Impe and that ilk have deceived people by distorting prophecy to fit their view of the end times. They profit from it, rather than provide clear Biblical teachings. A true dispensationalist would say that while these men might be scriptural, they are not dispensational.
The regathering of Israel and the re-birthing of the Nation of Israel is yet future. It will occur when Christ returns to earth at His second advent. The regathering and the re-birthing will be a supernatural act of God, not something done by man, and it will occur in a day (Isa. 66:8). As I said in another post, modern Israel could disappear from the face of the earth, but God will, according to His time schedule, accomplish this which will fulfill His covenant with Israel. BTW, this is when the New Covenant becomes effective for Israel, resulting in them being spiritually fit to be the blessing to all people per Gen. 12:2-3, which is a key provision of the Abrahamic Covenant.
...every branch will return to its root and will be united with it and every spiritual [entity will return] to its essence and will be linked to it, "and the Tabernacle will become one" ...(Exodus 26:6) 23
The panels in the Tabernacle represent both revelation and concealment. It just depends which side of the panel, you happen to be on...It's time to get Hebrew on the world!
Welcome to Dvar-Adonai
The Holy Scriptures, both Old and New Testaments, were given to the world through the Jewish people.
The world therefore owes them a very great debt, for wherever these Scriptures have come they have brought the blessings of light, joy and peace.
Is it not sad to find in this century so few Jews are familiar with their own Book – the greatest contribution to the welfare of humanity?
Out of gratitude to the Jewish people for their gift of the Bible to us, and in partial repayment of our debt, we desire to make both the Tanach and the New Testament in Hebrew available to the Jews.
We therefore ask your acceptance of this electronic edition of the Tanach and the New Testament in Hebrew, and pray that God's richest blessings may follow your careful reading of it.
23 See Abulafia's epistle printed by Adolph Jellinek, Auswahl Kabbalistischen Mystik, Leipzig, 1853, Erstes Heft, pp. 16-17.
Rabbi Abraham Abulafia, Rabbi Joseph ben Abraham Gikatilla's teacher.
Sha'are Orah notes.
Sod level analysis of Torah
The Bible does have the answers. The problem lies in how some people interpret it.
They're called 'Watchmen.'
Isaiah 62
6I have set watchmen on your walls, O Jerusalem;
They shall never hold their peace day or night.
You who make mention of the LORD, do not keep silent,
7And give Him no rest till He establishes
And till He makes Jerusalem a praise in the earth.
8The LORD has sworn by His right hand
And by the arm of His strength:
"Surely I will no longer give your grain
As food for your enemies;
And the sons of the foreigner shall not drink your new wine,
For which you have labored.
9But those who have gathered it shall eat it,
And praise the LORD;
Those who have brought it together shall drink it in My holy courts."
10Go through,
Go through the gates!
Prepare the way for the people;
Build up,
Build up the highway!
Take out the stones,
Lift up a banner for the peoples!
11Indeed the LORD has proclaimed
To the end of the world:
"Say to the daughter of Zion,
"Surely your salvation is coming;
Behold, His reward is with Him,
And His work before Him."'
12And they shall call them The Holy People,
The Redeemed of the LORD;
And you shall be called Sought Out,
A City Not Forsaken.
First of all "Christ" is a Greek term, not a Jewish one. The Lord is Yeshua Ha Mashiach. Salvation is more than for one to "accept Christ." The bigger question should be, "Will He accept you?" He said, Joh 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments. Those who love Him, do. Those who don't and say they know Him are liars: 1Jo 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. Therefore, an Unbeliever is one who doesn't love the Lord enough to keep His commandments. That is probably MOST of what calls itself Christian in America today! Torah observant Jews love G-d enough to keep His commandments but most Christians do not.
Tit 1:16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.
2Ti 2:12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:
1Pe 1:22 Seeing ye have ***purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently
The above verse matches nicely (see *** below) with the Messianic Jewish prayer on Friday nigiht, Shabbat, when the lady of the house lights the two candles representing Creation and Redemption. She recites the following (Messianic version):
Baruch ata Adonai Elahainu Melech Ha-Olam Asher Kidshanu Votav, Vtzibanu L’hiyoht Or Lagayim V’natan Lanu Yeshua Mishikanu Or La Olam.Jews are saved by keeping the commandments and faith in the coming Messiah. [Leave it to God to reveal Who that is WHEN HE DECIDES, not when you decide. He is outside of time and can do anything He wants.]Blessed are you, O Lord our God, Ruler of the universe Who ***sanctified us by Your commandments, and commanded us to be a light for the nations and gave us Yeshua our Messiah, the light of the world. Jerry Golden: The Sabbath
Christians are saved by keeping the commandments and faith in the Messiah who they recognize as Yeshua Ha Mashiach.
One of the most frightening sections in the Bible is this:
Mt 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
The Lord warned of deception more than anything else. Paul said, Ac 20:29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
Grievous wolves have been deceiving and duping the Christian Church for 1900 years, leading it away from its Jewish roots that it is its foundation. Jude 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.
Quite simply, God requires a lot more of people than "simply believe and receive," and the Word is present to direct anyone to the Truth who wants to be so directed. There are enough riddles built into the Word that those who are not sincerely repentant and humble will miss it. The true gospel is hid because they refuse to obey it. The Spirit of God is directing all who will follow to examine their Jewish roots, depart from pagan doctrines and feasts and return to the Word and obedience that they might be saved. Click here and follow a link or two 86.
Ro 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.
This heresy is called "restorationism" or "Deus abscondicus." Those who hold this view claim that God founded His church, then deserted/abandoned it for long, sad, centuries, until OUR man (Joe Smith, Judge Russell, Mary Ellen White, Cyrus I. Scofield, Sun Myong Moon, Kip Keene, whoever) showed up to make everything right again. It is not enough to simply embrace the Lord and the church family He's placed you in. In order to be really saved, you must also embrace OUR man (Joe Smith, Judge Russell, Mary Ellen White, Cyrus I. Scofield, Sun Myong Moon, Kip Keene, whoever).
Like Jesus, I am more Jewish than the Pharisees of His day, since I embrace the Bible (Torah) and esteem it more highly than I do the traditions of men (Talmud). As Jesus told those who denied Him, "If you had believed Moses, you would have believed Me, for Moses wrote of Me." The vast majority of our Lord's kin "after the flesh" went astray, because of the human traditions you seem to regard as the essence of Jewish culture.
Talmudic Judaism is a Christ-denying cult which, like the Moonies, the Mormons, the JWs, or the Muslims, elevates human writings above divine revelation. (hey, I like cultists, appreciate their sincerity and zeal, and pray for their salvation!)
Loving them into the Kingdom is mostly acting as Jesus did--meeting their needs as best one can as led by Holy Spirit and handing them off as much and as soon as fitting and possible to The Lord--when they become believers--getting them baptized, rooted and grounded in the word and a viable, alive, warm, loving, Spirit-led Fellowship. In the meantime, loving them in all the ways God opens doors for.
Here's an interesting questions - as the seed of Abraham, do you believe the church to be tied into the Abrahamic COvenant? That is, do you believe that nations that bless the church are blessed, and nations that curse the church are cursed? A thumbnail sketch of the world reveals that the most prosperous nations on earth have, or had, a very strong Christian influence. America comes to mind, as does Western Europe.
Thanks for your consideration.
That's so ridiculous that it's pathetic. People need to read the Bible, the WHOLE HOLY Bible. Some of the Jewish authorities rejected Him, but all of the early Christians were JEWS. They continued to keep the Sabbath holy, they continued to keep the Jewish feasts, they continued to worship in the temple.
"Jews are saved by keeping the commandments and faith in the coming Messiah."
But he has already come, and I don't think he was lying when he said, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me" (John 14:6).
Did you even read the accompanying Scripture passage? "...His own did not receive Him..." (John 1:10-13).
"...all of the early Christians were JEWS."
Yes. To put it another way, all Jews who believed in Christ were Christians. So were all Gentiles who believed. Again, I feel the need to refer to Galatians 3:28. All are one in Christ.
When you point the finger you have three fingers pointing back at yourself.
What are the holes in so-called dispensational premillennialism? I haven't seen anything here, or in your other posts that provides evidence of your interpretation of pre-mil. Your argument here is about who is Israel today and your replacement theology position.
Regarding Paul and being Abraham's seed, you're referring to Ro. 11:14ff. The context is that Israel has been set aside, temporarily, and Gentiles are receiving and deriving their blessing through Abraham, as is true for Israel. Just as the "little flock" was holy, so the whole nation will be holy (v. 16). The "little flock" is the first fruit of what will be a much bigger fruit - the Nation (Nu. 15:17-21). The "lump" is Israel, with the idea being that if the first piece of the dough is holy, the whole lump is holy. Then v.16 says that just as Abraham, the "root" was holy, so the "little flock," the "branches," will be holy.
Since some of the branches have been broken off, v. 17, or set aside, Gentiles are being blessed with Abraham. Ro. 9:31-33; 10:3,16,18-21; 11:7 indicate why the branches were broken off. The "wild olive tree" is what in Jeremiah 11:16 (1-16) is referred to as the "green olive tree." The olive tree is a type of Israel's spiritual life. Ro. 4:9-16 is instructive:
9. Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteouness. 10. How was it then reckoned: when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision: Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision. 11. And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the rightousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: the he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also: 12. And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised. 13. For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith. 14. For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect: 15. Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression. 16. Therfore, it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all.
As illustrated in this passage, "faith" is the substance of what flows through the olive tree - the root through Abraham's righteousness which we receive by grace through faith. Gal. 3:9 tells us, "So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham." And verse 29 concludes, "And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise." You can read all of Gal. 3 for context. "Heirs" in verse 29 is the righteousness we are beneficiaries of because Abraham is the father of all. Of course, 2Cor. 5:21 tells us how we get righteousness because of being the seed of Abraham.
According to Ro. 11:17, Gentiles are now taking advantage of the root and fatness of the olive tree. The "branches" are both Jews and Gentiles, and as such, are able to partake of the blessings through Abraham. Gentiles partake of righteousness by grace through faith; not by the covenants and promises for Israel. Jer. 31:31-34 is the New Covenant, which God accomplishes though Christ's death on the cross. Through Paul, God tells us that Christ also died for the sins of the whole world. Therefore, we are beneficiaries of the New Covenant even though it is made with Israel. It must be understood that while we receive the benefits immediately when saved, the fulfillment of the New Covenant for Israel will not occur until a later time for the Jews, that being the second advent of Christ.
The next verses in Ro. 17 are stern warnings about not looking down on Israel, v. 18; remembering that Gentile blessing comes through Abraham, v. 18; not boasting, as if what happened to Israel could not happen to Gentiles, v. 19; recognizing that they are blessed purely by faith, v.20; and recognizing that what happened to Israel can, and will happen to them, vs. 20-21, meaning at the end of the age of grace when Gentiles will be cast out when Israel's program is renewed.
Romans 11:12,15,23-36 makes it very clear that Israel will be restored. Verse 26 is most clear, "And so all Israel will be saved: as it is written." Cf. Hosea 14:1-9 and 2Cor. 3:13-16. Israel's blindness is temporary, and will be removed when the present dispensation of Gentile grace comes to an end, v. 25. This verse is new truth. Israel will return to a position of prominence and favor with all nations being blessed through Israel. Jesus describes the time of the fulness of the Gentiles in Lk. 21:20-28, specifically v. 24.
Israel's restoration means they will experience national salvation, v. 26. This national salvation will take place when Christ returns as their Deliverer, v. 26. That's what Peter's preaching about in Acts 3:19-21 and as described in Acts 1:1-12. Israel's national restoration means that their national sins will be forgiven, vs. 26-27. In v. 28, the "election" is the same as the "little flock" or "remnant," and doesn't refer to individuals. The remnant in Israel is God's beloved for the sake of the fathers. God's promised gifts and sovereign selection are irreversible, v. 29. This has nothing to do with salvation by grace through faith, as applies to us today. We obtain mercy today, even though we had been in unbelief, through the unbelief of Israel, v. 30. Jews in this dispensation of grace obtain mercy in direct relationship to the mercy the Gentiles are obtaining, v. 31. God has shut Jew and Gentile up in unbelief that He might have mercy on both, without distinction, v. 32.
Nowhere does God say that the Gentiles, or the Body of Christ has replace Israel and His program for Israel. We ar both in unbelief today so that He might show His grace to those who belive,without distinction. Now that's good news! Trying to claim something that God says He isn't doing is larceny. That's what claiming we're Israel attempts to do.
Show me a scripture passage in context that describes this prophecy. There isn't one, this idea is developed out of other flawed theology.
This seems to be the theme of the parable of the sheep and the goats in Matt. 25. Who are the brethren of Jesus? He Himself told us, on an occasion when his mother and kinfolk showed up with the strait jacket and butterfly nets: "Who is my mother? Who are my brethren? These who hear and keep the word of God!" IOW, even the closest physical ties are as nothing compared to the commonality of faith.
The nations that hospitably recieve the messangers of the gospel open the doors to heaven's blessings. When you read the stories of national conversions, the dominant note is great joy. (I'm thinking in particular of Kiev in 988.)
His own did not receive Him..." (John 1:10-13).
Yet, all of the disciples were Jewish "except" for Luke who was a Jewish convert. Then there are other numerous references to Jewish believers in the NT.
Galatians 3:28 means we are equal, but last time I looked in the mirror, I was still a female.
Dispensationalism is contradicted by Scripture over and over and over again.
God is not finished with the Jews. We (the church) are but grafted in branches.
And what is the olive tree into which we are grafted? What does an olive tree symbolize everywhere it is used in Scripture?
However, if you feel the shoe fits, you are certainly welcome to wear it.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.