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Teaching Alternative To Evolution Backed
Washinton Post ^ | Wednesday, May 29, 2002 | Michael A. Fletcher

Posted on 05/30/2002 7:40:53 AM PDT by Gladwin

Edited on 09/03/2002 4:50:34 AM PDT by Jim Robinson. [history]

Two House Republicans are citing landmark education reform legislation in pressing for the adoption of a school science curriculum in their home state of Ohio that includes the teaching of an alternative to evolution.

In what both sides of the debate say is the first attempt of its kind, Reps. John A. Boehner and Steve Chabot have urged the Ohio Board of Education to consider the language in a conference report that accompanied the major education law enacted earlier this year.....


(Excerpt) Read more at washingtonpost.com ...


TOPICS: News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: crevolist; evolution; intelligentdesign; msbogusvirus
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To: f.Christian
Darwinuts-ban...the sacred---popery!

LOL

You do realize that you're completely mad, don't you?

201 posted on 05/30/2002 2:00:46 PM PDT by Dementon
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To: Pete
Rather, they were calculated under the constraints of what we understand the processes to be. For example, if I recall correctly, (without my notes) there are 80 types of amino acids, 20 of which are found in living things. A single protein is built from a combination of 100 of these 20 amino acids in a specific order. Given just that information, it is possible to calculate the probability that a protien would be created by a random combination of 100 amino acids.

First off, we don't know what the processes are. The theory of evolution is descriptive -- it basically says organisms change over time, eventually giving rise to wholey different types of organisms. Secondly, chemicals in general and amino acids in particular occassionally evince a stronger tendency to hook up with certain other chemicals, making random combinations a moot point. Additionally, certain short chains of chemicals may form readily and concurrently and later be joined up in a longer chain, meaning that one does not need to go through sequential steps to arrive at the longer chain, as several of the preceding steps were done simultaneously (sort of like erecting a prefab house). Therefore calculating how long it would take to form 100 amino acids into a single protein is moot if such factors as those mentioned above are not taken into consideration.

202 posted on 05/30/2002 2:01:11 PM PDT by Junior
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To: Junior
See post 202.
203 posted on 05/30/2002 2:01:46 PM PDT by Junior
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To: Quila
As with evolution, there are certain aspects of quantum theory that are facts lying within the whole unproven theory.

I wholeheartedly agree.

But it will take a lot more for me to accept uncaused effects.

I could be just a stubborn old cuss, but there it is.

Shalom.

204 posted on 05/30/2002 2:02:12 PM PDT by ArGee
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To: ArGee
"I then asked if the non-packed nature of the DNA would make it possible to apply IT to determine whether it was, in fact, information?"

Statistics and information theory would show that DNA is almost certainly non-random. Whether or not it's information has to be teased out of what the non-randomness does. I don't think information theory is up to that.

205 posted on 05/30/2002 2:03:30 PM PDT by OBAFGKM
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To: PatrickHenry
In one case he accused me of being a commie, in another of being a gay nazi. No one reads that bozo's postings, but those items just had to go.

It's nice of you to stick up for the gays, the commies, and the Nazis like that...

(Hee hee!)

206 posted on 05/30/2002 2:03:39 PM PDT by Condorman
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To: Quila
I'm still not convinced on the deity part though.

I understand. It becomes quite a bit easier to accept after you meet Him.

Shalom.

207 posted on 05/30/2002 2:04:01 PM PDT by ArGee
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To: Quila
I'm reading The Case for Christ right now, and it shows very well that what you just wrote is a bit overstated. There is quite decent historical accuracy there. I'm still not convinced on the deity part though.

That was my point. Just because the book is historically accurate does not prove the existence of a God. Floods happen all the time and people build houses and towns and boats all the time.

Overstated, pertaining to?

EBUCK

208 posted on 05/30/2002 2:04:08 PM PDT by EBUCK
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To: OBAFGKM
Statistics and information theory would show that DNA is almost certainly non-random. Whether or not it's information has to be teased out of what the non-randomness does. I don't think information theory is up to that.

OK. That's what I thought SETI was all about, though.

Thanks for the info.

Shalom.

209 posted on 05/30/2002 2:05:51 PM PDT by ArGee
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To: Gladwin
I don't understand. This is supposedly part of the education law Bush signed? Yet, the article also states this is part of a non-binding resolution? Huh??? Somebody explain this.
210 posted on 05/30/2002 2:06:39 PM PDT by rwfromkansas
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To: narby
Is ID a Christian belief?

I don't see anybody but Christians pushing it. No, that's a bit too broad: I don't see anybody but American Christians pushing it. My religious German friends are clueless about it.

211 posted on 05/30/2002 2:06:48 PM PDT by Quila
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To: Dimensio
Argee:
For example, I can know that my wife loves me, but I have no idea how I could prove it to not be true.

Dimensio:

It is currently accepted that human thought processes, including emotion, are a result of chemical reactions in the brain. If this is true, then while the technology for observing and quantifying those reactions does not yet exist, either the theoretical possiblity that those reactions could be measured exists (from which you could define what establishes "love" and test to determine its presence) -- or, it could be the case that human thought processes are something beyond any natural explanation (in which case it's outside the scope of science).

Hmm. I would have recommended that he leave a pair of panties under the front seat of his car. That should clear up any doubts.

212 posted on 05/30/2002 2:07:43 PM PDT by OBAFGKM
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To: Dementon
A one tracked mind on a dead end track is mad!
213 posted on 05/30/2002 2:08:28 PM PDT by f.Christian
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To: ArGee
Information theory is based on the concept that there is a difference between information and random signals. This is axiomatic since it can not be proven.

This isn't correct, as you make a distinction that doesn't exist. "Randomness" is just a description of the entropy for a given datastream and tells you absolutely nothing about the subjective value of the information content of the datastream. What "randomness" tells you is the relationship between the size of the datastream and the information content it contains.

There is no mathematical distinction between subjectively interesting data and subjectively uninteresting data with the same information content. To do so would be analogous to asserting that Swahili is "random noise" because you don't understand Swahili. Information theory tells you how much information is there, not how to interpret it. It is a common fallacy to ascribe more value to a pattern that you recognize than one that you don't.

Entropy has no relation to apparent complexity, at least as "complexity" is used in normal jargon (it does have a relationship to Kolmogorov Complexity, but that is something else). Humans aren't particularly good at discerning if something is actually complex in an information theoretic sense or not, particularly since most people really aren't familiar with how mathematical complexity is actually measured. In an information theoretic sense, many things that appear "complex" to humans aren't if a rigorous evaluation of information content is actually made.

214 posted on 05/30/2002 2:09:21 PM PDT by tortoise
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To: AndrewC
I am not an evolutionist, but you are flat wrong. Modern evolution is not exactly the same as Darwin's theory. And no, it is not a law, but a theory.
215 posted on 05/30/2002 2:09:34 PM PDT by rwfromkansas
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To: Dimensio
Showing a monkey turning into a man would prove ID wrong, I would rather think....:) But, of course you can't show that, can you?
216 posted on 05/30/2002 2:10:43 PM PDT by rwfromkansas
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To: ArGee
"That's what I thought SETI was all about, though."

SETI's looking for a broadcast amounting to a conventional AM or FM radio signal. Those would be pretty easily distinguished from noise because they consist of a powerful signal over a very narrow range of radio frequencies having a much lower pattern impressed on them. There's no known natural phenomenon producing such.

Pulsars caused a stir in the early 1960's because they initially seemed to fit that pattern.

217 posted on 05/30/2002 2:12:39 PM PDT by OBAFGKM
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To: Dimensio
Some would define God as the origin of the laws which must be followed for the building of structures (physical, biological or whatever). Just as the laws of mathematics determine how numbers interact, God's laws of life determine the infinite interactions of the universe. The essense of "natural".

This defines God into a meaningless concept.

Is mathematics a "meaningless concept" also?

Again, numbers interact as they do based upon the laws of mathematics. The universe and all life therein interacts as it does based upon the laws of Life (God).

Science is used to perceive, understand and use these Laws to manifest life to its fullest. That has plenty of meaning for me.

218 posted on 05/30/2002 2:13:12 PM PDT by Semper
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To: rwfromkansas
I am not an evolutionist, but you are flat wrong. Modern evolution is not exactly the same as Darwin's theory. And no, it is not a law, but a theory.

Please see post 21

219 posted on 05/30/2002 2:14:20 PM PDT by AndrewC
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To: Quila
It seems to be an underlying belief of all religions. That is that in some form or another "we are the children of a higher power". It's just that here Evolution Theory is perceived to be somehow linked to the genreal decline of society by our Christian coutrymen. I guess anything that takes away from the collection plate is a threat to society.

EBUCK

220 posted on 05/30/2002 2:15:02 PM PDT by EBUCK
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