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Could the South Have Won?
NY Books ^ | June 2002 ed. | James M. McPherson

Posted on 05/23/2002 8:52:25 AM PDT by stainlessbanner


The New York Review of Books
June 13, 2002

Review

Could the South Have Won?

By James M. McPherson

Look Away! A History of the Confederate States of America

by William C. Davis

The South vs. the South: How Anti-Confederate Southerners Shaped the Course of the Civil War

by William W. Freehling

Lee and His Army in Confederate History

by Gary W. Gallagher

The War Hits Home: The Civil War in Southeastern Virginia
by Brian Steel Wills

The field of Civil War history has produced more interpretative disputes than most historical events. Next to debates about the causes of the war, arguments about why the North won, or why the Confederacy lost (the difference in phraseology is significant), have generated some of the most heated but also most enlightening recent scholarship. The titles of four books reveal just some of the central themes of this argument: Why the North Won the Civil War (1960); How the North Won (1983); Why the South Lost the Civil War (1986); Why the Confederacy Lost (1992).

Answers to these why and how questions fall into two general categories: external and internal. Exter-nal interpretations usually phrase the question as Why did the North win? They focus on a comparison of Northern and Southern population, resources, economic capacity, leadership, or strategy, and conclude that Northern superiority in one or more of these explains Union victory. Internal explanations tend to ask, Why did the South lose? They focus mainly or entirely on the Confederacy and argue that internal divisions, dissensions, or inadequacies account for Confederate defeat.

The most durable interpretation is an external one. It was offered by General Robert E. Lee himself in a farewell address to his army after its surrender at Appomattox: "The Army of Northern Virginia has been compelled to yield to overwhelming numbers and resources."[1] This explanation enabled Southern whites to preserve their pride, to reconcile defeat with their sense of honor, even to maintain faith in the nobility of their cause while admitting that it had been lost. The Confederacy, in other words, was compelled to surrender not because its soldiers fought badly, or lacked courage, or suffered from poor leadership, or because its cause was wrong, but simply because the enemy had more men and guns. The South did not lose; Confederates wore themselves out whipping the Yankees and collapsed from glorious exhaustion. This interpretation became the mainstay of what has been called the Myth of the Lost Cause, which has sustained Southern pride in their Confederate forebears to this day. As one Virginian expressed it:

They never whipped us, Sir, unless they were four to one. If we had had anything like a fair chance, or less disparity of numbers, we should have won our cause and established our independence.[2]

In one form or another, this explanation has won support from scholars of Northern as well as Southern birth. In 1960 the historian Richard Current provided a succinct version of it. After reviewing the statistics of the North's "overwhelming numbers and resources" two and a half times the South's population, three times its railroad capacity, nine times its industrial production, and so on Current concluded that "surely, in view of the disparity of resources, it would have taken a miracle...to enable the South to win. As usual, God was on the side of the heaviest battalions."[3]

In 1990 Shelby Foote expressed this thesis in his inimitable fashion. Noting that many aspects of life in the North went on much as usual during the Civil War, Foote told Ken Burns on camera in the PBS documentary The Civil War that "the North fought that war with one hand behind its back." If necessary "the North simply would have brought that other arm out from behind its back. I don't think the South ever had a chance to win that war."[4]


At first glance, Current's and Foote's statements seem plausible. But upon reflection, a good many historians have questioned their explicit assertions that overwhelming numbers and resources made Northern victory inevitable. If that is true, the Confederate leaders who took their people to war in 1861 were guilty of criminal folly or colossal arrogance. They had read the census returns. They knew as much about the North's superiority in men, resources, and economic capacity as any modern historian. Yet they went to war confident of victory. Southern leaders were students of history. They could cite many examples of small nations that won or defended their independence against much more powerful enemies: Switzerland against the Hapsburg Empire; the Netherlands against Spain; Greece against the Ottomans. Their own ancestors had won independence from mighty Britain in 1783. The relative resources of the Confederacy vis-à-vis the Union in 1861 were greater than those of these other successful rebels.

The Confederacy waged a strategically defensive war to protect from conquest territory it already controlled and to preserve its armies from annihilation. To "win" that kind of war, the Confederacy did not need to invade and conquer the North or destroy its army and infrastructure; it needed only to hold out long enough to compel the North to the conclusion that the price of conquering the South and annihilating its armies was too great, as Britain had concluded with respect to the United States in 1781 or, for that matter, as the United States concluded with respect to Vietnam in 1972. Until 1865, cold-eyed military experts in Europe were almost unanimous in their conviction that Union armies could never conquer and subdue the 750,000 square miles of the Confederacy, as large as all of Western Europe. "No war of independence ever terminated unsuccessfully except where the disparity of force was far greater than it is in this case," pronounced the military analyst of the London Times in 1862. "Just as England during the revolution had to give up conquering the colonies so the North will have to give up conquering the South."[5]

Even after losing the war, many ex-Confederates stuck to this belief. General Joseph E. Johnston, one of the highest-ranking Confederate officers, insisted in 1874 that the Southern people had not been "guilty of the high crime of undertaking a war without the means of waging it successfully."[6] A decade later General Pierre G.T. Beauregard, who ranked just below Johnston, made the same point: "No people ever warred for independence with more relative advantages than the Confederates."[7]


If so, why did they lose the war? In thinly veiled terms, Johnston and Beauregard blamed the inept leadership of Jefferson Davis. That harried gentleman responded in kind; as far as he was concerned, the erratic and inadequate generalship of Beauregard and especially Johnston was responsible for Confederate defeat. In the eyes of many contemporaries and historians there was plenty of blame to go around. William C. Davis's Look Away! is the most recent "internal" study of the Confederacy that, by implication at least, attributes Confederate defeat to poor leadership at several levels, both military and civilian, as well as factionalism, dissension, and bickering between men with outsize egos and thin skins. In this version of Confederate history, only Robert E. Lee and Stonewall Jackson remain unstained.

For any believer in the Myth of the Lost Cause, any admirer of heroic Confederate resistance to overwhelming odds, the story told by Davis (no relation to the Confederate president) makes depressing reading. It is a story of conflicts not on the battlefields of Manassas or Shiloh or Gettysburg or Chickamauga or the Wilderness they are here, but offstage, as it were but conflicts between state governors and the Confederate government in Richmond, between quarreling Cabinet officers, between Jefferson Davis and prominent generals or senators or newspaper editors and even his vice-president, Alexander Stephens. Davis chronicles different examples of internal breakdown under the stresses not only of enemy invasion but also of slave defections to the Yankees, of Unionist disloyalty in the upcountry, particularly in such states as Tennessee, of galloping inflation and the inability of an unbalanced agricultural society under siege to control it, of shortages and hunger and a growing bitterness and alienation among large elements of the population.

These problems seemed more than sufficient to ensure Confederate failure, but they were greatly exacerbated by the jealousies and rivalries of Confederate politicians, which remain Davis's principal focus. He does not explicitly address the question of why the Confederacy lost, but his implicit answer lies in the assertion that "the fundamental flaw in too many of the big men of the Confederacy... [was] 'big-man-me-ism.'"

There are, however, two problems with this interpretation. In two senses it is too "internal." First, by concentrating only on the Confederacy it tends to leave the reader with the impression that only the Confederacy suffered from these corrosive rivalries, jealousies, and dissensions. But a history of the North during the Civil War would reveal similar problems, mitigated only by Lincoln's skill in holding together a diverse coalition of Republicans and War Democrats, Yankees and border states, abolitionists and slaveholders which perhaps suggests that Lincoln was the principal reason for Union victory. In any event, Look Away! is also too "internal" because the author is too deeply dependent on his sources. It is the nature of newspaper editorials, private correspondence, congressional debates, partisan speeches, and the like to emphasize conflict, criticism, argument, complaint. It is the squeaky wheel that squeaks. The historian needs to step back and gain some perspective on these sources, to recognize that the well-greased wheel that turns smoothly also turns quietly, leaving less evidence of its existence available to the historian.

Look Away! falls within one tradition of internal explanations for Confederate defeat. More prevalent, especially in recent years, have been studies that emphasize divisions and conflicts of race, class, and even gender in the South. Two fifths of the Confederate population were slaves, and two thirds of the whites did not belong to slaveholding families. What stake did they have in an independent Confederate nation whose original raison d'être was the protection of slavery? Not much stake at all, according to many historians, especially for the slaves and, as the war took an increasing toll on non-slaveholding white families, very little stake for them either. Even among slaveholding families, the women who willingly subscribed to an ethic of sacrifice in the war's early years became disillusioned as the lengthening war robbed them of husbands, sons, lovers, and brothers. Many white women turned against the war and spread this disaffection among their menfolk in the army; in the end, according to Drew Gilpin Faust, "it may well have been because of its women that the South lost the Civil War."[8]


If all this is true if the slaves and some nonslaveholding whites opposed the Confederate war effort from the outset and others including women of slaveholding families eventually turned against it, one need look no further to explain Confederate defeat. In The South vs. the South, however, William W. Freehling does not go this far. He says almost nothing about women as a separate category, and he acknowledges that many nonslaveholding whites had a racial, cultural, and even economic stake in the preservation of slavery and remained loyal Confederates to the end. But he maintains that, properly defined, half of all Southerners opposed the Confederacy and that this fact provides a sufficient explanation for Confederate failure.

Freehling defines the South as all fifteen slave states and Southerners as all people slave as well as free who lived in those states. This distinction between "the South" and the eleven slave states that formed the Confederacy is important but too often disregarded by those who casually conflate the South and the Confederacy. Admittedly, some 90,000 white men from the four Union slave states (Kentucky, Missouri, Maryland, and Delaware) fought for the Confederacy, but this number was offset by a similar number of whites from Confederate states (chiefly Tennessee and the part of Virginia that became West Virginia) who fought for the Union.

But Freehling's central thesis that "white Confederates were only half the Southerners" raises problems. This arithmetic works only if virtually all black Southerners are counted against the Confederacy. At times Freehling seems to argue that they should be so counted. At other times he is more cautious, maintaining that "the vast majority" of Southern blacks "either opposed the rebel cause or cared not whether it lived or died." Freehling does not make clear how important he considers that qualifying "or cared not." In any event, let us assume that all three million slaves who remained in the Confederacy (as well as the one million in the border states and in conquered Confederate regions) sympathized with the Union cause that would bring them freedom. Nevertheless, their unwilling labor as slaves was crucial to the Confederate economy and war effort, just as their unwilling labor and that of their forebears had been crucial to building the antebellum Southern economy. These Confederate slaves worked less efficiently than before the war because so many masters and overseers were absent at the front. Unwilling or not, however, they must be counted on the Confederate side of the equation, which significantly alters Freehling's 50/50 split of pro- and anti-Confederates in the South to something like 75/25.

Freehling draws on previous scholarship to offer a succinct narrative of the political and military course of the war, organized around Lincoln's slow but inexorable steps toward emancipation, "hard war," and the eventual mobilization of 300,000 black laborers and soldiers to work and fight for the Union. This narrative is marred by several errors, including the repeated confusion of General Charles F. Smith with General William F. "Baldy" Smith, the conflation of combat casualties with combat mortality, the mislabeling of a photograph of Confederate trenches at Fredericksburg as Petersburg, and the acceptance at face value of Alexander Stephens's absurd claim, made five years after Lincoln's death, that the Union president had urged him in 1865 to persuade Southern states to ratify the Thirteenth Amendment "prospectively," thereby delaying the abolition of slavery five years. Nevertheless, Freehling has made a strong case for the vital contribution of the two million whites and one million blacks in the South who definitely did support the Union cause. Without them, "the North" could not have prevailed, as Lincoln readily acknowledged.


Freehling does not take a clear stand on the question of whether Union victory was inevitable. At times he seems to imply that it was, because the half of all Southerners whom he claims supported the Union (actively or passively) doomed the Confederacy. But at other times he suggests that this support was contingent on the outcome of military campaigns and political decisions. No such ambiguity characterizes the essays in Gary Gallagher's Lee and His Army in Confederate History. In this book and in his earlier The Confederate War, Gallagher has argued forcefully and convincingly that Confederate nationalism bound most Southern whites together in determined support for the Confederate cause, that the brilliant though costly victories of Robert E. Lee's Army of Northern Virginia reinforced this determination, and that morale even in the face of defeat and the destruction of resources in 1864 1865 remained high until almost the end.

Gallagher does not slight the problems of slave defections to the Yankees, class tensions among whites, personal rivalries and jealousies among Confederate leaders, and other internal divisions that have occupied historians who see these problems as preordaining defeat. But he emphasizes the degree of white unity and strength of purpose despite these faultlines. Plenty of evidence exists to support this emphasis. A Union officer who was captured at the Battle of Atlanta on July 22, 1864, and spent the rest of the war in Southern prisons wrote in his diary on October 4 that from what he had seen in the South "the End of the War...is some time hence as the Idea of the Rebs giving up until they are completely subdued is all Moonshine they submit to privatations that would not be believed unless seen."[9]

"Until they are completely subdued." That point came in April 1865, when the large and well-equipped Union armies finally brought the starving, barefoot, and decimated ranks of Confederates to bay. Gallagher revives the overwhelming numbers and resources explanation for Confederate defeat, shorn of its false aura of inevitability. Numbers and resources do not prevail in war without the will and skill to use them. The Northern will wavered several times, most notably in response to Lee's victories in the summer of 1862 and winter spring of 1863 and the success of Lee's resistance to Grant's offensives in the spring and summer of 1864. Yet Union leaders and armies were learning the skills needed to win, and each time the Confederacy seemed on the edge of triumph, Northern victories blunted the Southern momentum: at Sharpsburg, Maryland, and Perryville, Kentucky, in the fall of 1862; at Gettysburg and Vicksburg in July 1863; and at Atlanta and in Virginia's Shenandoah Valley in September 1864. Better than any other historian of the Confederacy, Gallagher understands the importance of these contingent turning points that eventually made it possible for superior numbers and resources to prevail. He understands as well that the Confederate story cannot be written except in counterpoint with the Union story, and that because of the multiple contingencies in these stories, Northern victory was anything but inevitable.


Much of the best scholarship on the Civil War during the past decade has concentrated on the local or regional impact of the war. A fine example is Brian Steel Wills's The War Hits Home, a fascinating account of the home front and battle front in southeastern Virginia, especially the town of Suffolk and its hinterland just inland from Norfolk. No great battles took place here, but there was plenty of skirmishing and raids by combatants on both sides. Confederates controlled this region until May 1862, when they were compelled to pull back their defenses to Richmond. Union forces occupied Suffolk for the next year, staving off a halfhearted Confederate effort to recapture it in the spring of 1863. The Yankees subsequently fell back to a more defensible line nearer Norfolk, leaving the Suffolk region a sort of no man's land subject to raids and plundering by the cavalry of both armies.

Through it all most white inhabitants remained committed Confederates, while many of the slaves who were not removed by their owners to safer territory absconded to the Yankees, adding their weight to the Union side of the scales in the balance of power discussed by Freehling. White men from this region fought in several of Lee's regiments, suffering casualties that left many a household bereft of sons, husbands, fathers. Yet their Confederate loyalties scarcely wavered.

Northern occupation forces at first tried a policy of conciliation, hoping to win the Southern whites back to the Union. When this failed, they moved toward a harsher policy here as they did elsewhere, confiscating the property and liberating the slaves of people they now perceived as enemies to be crushed rather than deluded victims of secession conspirators to be converted.

Wills does not make a big point of it, but his findings stand "in sharp rebuttal" to the arguments of historians who portray a weak or divided white commitment to the Confederate cause as the reason for defeat. "These people sought to secure victory until there was no victory left to win." In the end the North did have greater numbers and resources, wielded with a skill and determination that by 1864 1865 matched the Confederacy's skills and determination; and these explain why the North won the Civil War.

Notes

[1] The Wartime Papers of R.E. Lee, edited by Clifford Dowdey and Louis H. Manarin (Little, Brown, 1961), p. 934.

[2] Quoted in Why the North Won the Civil War, edited by David Donald (Louisiana State University Press, 1960), p. ix.

[3] Richard N. Current, "God and the Strongest Battalions," in Why the North Won the Civil War, p. 22.

[4] "Men at War: An Interview with Shelby Foote," in Geoffrey C. Ward with Ric Burns and Ken Burns, The Civil War (Knopf, 1990), p. 272.

[5] London Times, August 29, 1862.

[6] Joseph E. Johnston, Narrative of Military Operations (Appleton, 1874), p. 421.

[7] Pierre G.T. Beauregard, "The First Battle of Bull Run," in Battles and Leaders of the Civil War, 4 volumes, edited by Robert U. Johnson and Clarence C. Buel (Century, 1887), Vol. 1, p. 222.

[8] Drew Gilpin Faust, "Altars of Sacrifice: Confederate Women and the Narratives of War," The Journal of American History, Vol. 76, No. 4 (March 1990), p. 1228.

[9] "The Civil War Diary of Colonel John Henry Smith," edited by David M. Smith, Iowa Journal of History, Vol. 47 (April 1949), p. 164.



TOPICS: Culture/Society
KEYWORDS: books; dixie; dixielist; jamesmcpherson; mcpherson; research; south
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To: lentulusgracchus
I think you are right that size alone doesn't produce the kind of freedom Madison sought. There is, as you've said, the example of the Soviet Union, and of other megastates as well. On the other side, many of the city states of the Middle Ages provided freedom, opportunity, and toleration, within the bounds set by the dominant merchants, though the Italian city states were beset by all the dangers of faction, that Madison warned against.

Madison wasn't arguing for size per se, but for a federal system that diffuses intense local conflicts over a larger and more heterogenous area. The separation of powers would make it harder for local disputes to bulk so large on the national scene or for national conflicts to disrupt local politics. The late 20th century system didn't reflect this perception, but neither did the Articles of Confederation.

As between unionists and secessionists, it's not clear to me that the secessionists were closer to the Madisonian balance than the unionists. I'd say the reverse was true. Of course if you had no federal government, you wouldn't have had such an imbalance of federal power in the next century, but we make our choices on present conditions. We may look generations into the future, but we can't anticipate all contingencies and shouldn't throw away something that works because of what it might become if our decendents don't have the virtues we do.

This is a living debate, since there are those even now, who see the US breaking up along regional lines. Part of the dispute here is about whether a divided or fragmented America would be more like those peaceful and prosperous Northern European city states or more like the contentious and tumultuous Italian city-states. What would happen now is anyone's guess, but the talk of absolute state sovereignty, distrust of industry, reliance on single crop agriculture, racial questions and slavery makes me expect that the Southern states of 1860 would have been in the unfortunate category had they truly tried to go it alone. You may dislike the chicanery and economic empire building of the Gilded Age, but they did direct the energies of the ambitious away from politics towards technology and business. Where this path isn't open, the ambitious young turn towards coups and political mischief. It's also possible that the Confederate government would have tried to keep the states in line and the same conflicts would have developed as we have known since the Civil War, as the new national elites sought to use the government for their own projects.

Not sure about ancient history, but the empires of the Hellenistic period allowed Greeks, Jews and others to move throughout the world, so there must have been some openness to other cultures. The opportunity for different peoples in pagan empires to just add each others gods to their own must have helped as well. As you note, such empires could be hard on those who weren't polytheists.

981 posted on 06/06/2002 10:51:05 AM PDT by x
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Comment #982 Removed by Moderator

To: copperheadmike
The reasons to seek independence are irrelevant, it is the Right of the people to alter or abolish is what matters. If the British colonies had the Right, then the 13 Southern States did also.

The so-called seceded states may have had a natural right to break the Union. They had no rights under U.S. law to do so.

Even their natural right is suspect, if it takes a "long train of abuses" as Jefferson suggested in the D of I. There was no long train of abuses prior to 1860. Southerners had controlled the federal government for decades.

The source of their distress was an election that didn't go their way.

Walt

983 posted on 06/07/2002 2:32:05 AM PDT by WhiskeyPapa
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To: Aurelius
"It is SO easy to make you look a fool.:"

As I have told you many times "In your eyes only." In the eyes of people who understand what is going on, the fool and idiot is you. But live happily in your self-delusion, arsehole.

Lincoln said:

"As I would not be a slave, so I would not be a master. This expresses my idea of democracy. Whatever differs from this, to the extent of the difference, is no democracy."

Are you going to address what he -said- or not?

I've only asked three times.

Walt

984 posted on 06/07/2002 2:37:03 AM PDT by WhiskeyPapa
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To: WhiskeyPapa
There was no long train of abuses prior to 1860. Southerners had controlled the federal government for decades.

The "long train of abuses" to which Jefferson referred went back only to the French and Indian War, and the taxes that were levied to pay for it -- 13 years, count 'em, from the Peace of Paris that ended that war in 1763, until independence was declared in 1776.

The concatenation of abuses and discontent the South had put up with went back to the Missouri Compromise of 1820 and the Tariff of 1824 -- 40 years.

No, Walt, as usual it's your sweeping generalizations that are off-base. Particularly when you combine them with graceless slurs against the characters of the men you disagree with and pretend to despise. You couldn't look down at Alexander Stephens, Judah Benjamin, and Bobby Lee unless you stood on your head.

985 posted on 06/07/2002 4:21:16 AM PDT by lentulusgracchus
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To: WhiskeyPapa
The source of their distress was an election that didn't go their way.

The source of their distress was people like you.

986 posted on 06/07/2002 4:23:20 AM PDT by lentulusgracchus
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To: lentulusgracchus
But if your contentions are true then that means the south was still holding a grudge over legislation which had long since been done away with. The Missouri Compromise had been overturned by the Kansas-Nebraska Act in 1854 which made the expansion of slavery possible, leaving the issue up to the people of the territories themselves. Shades of State's rights. As for the tariffs of 1824 and later, the tariff had been falling all through the decade of the 1850's until, as Alexander Stephens pointed out in 1860, "they were made just as low as Southern men asked them to be, and those are the rates they are now at."
987 posted on 06/07/2002 4:29:36 AM PDT by Non-Sequitur
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To: 4ConservativeJustices
Re your 966: Sir, you have achieved complete refutation of Walt's claim of a nationwide populus assuming Sovereignty for his and Lincoln's purposes.

Elenchus for 4CJ. The States were the People, and the People by sovereign acts not ordinances, seceded. Their actions were the lawful exercise of the rights that they enjoyed unimpaired by the Constitution, as noticed by the Ninth and Tenth Amendments, the Supremacy Clause notwithstanding.

Well argued, sir. Congratulations. The juleps await us -- today we are on the lawn, in the shade of the mossy oak behind the pavilion, and the ladies have preceded us.

988 posted on 06/07/2002 4:32:27 AM PDT by lentulusgracchus
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To: lentulusgracchus
The concatenation of abuses and discontent the South had put up with went back to the Missouri Compromise of 1820 and the Tariff of 1824 -- 40 years.

Please.

Tariffs were lower in 1860 than they had been in 40 years.

Can you gainsay Governor Pickens?

"We have the Executive with us, and the Senate & in all probability the H.R. too. Besides we have repealed the Missouri line & the Supreme Court in a decision of great power, has declared it, & all kindred measures on the part of the Federal Govt. unconstitutional null & void. So, that before our enemies can reach us, they must first break down the Supreme Court - change the Senate & seize the Executive & by an open appeal to Revolution, restore the Missouri line, repeal the Fugitive slave law & change the whole governt. As long as the Govt. is on our side I am for sustaining it, & using its power for our benefit, & placing the screws upon the throats of our opponents".

- Francis W. Pickens, June,1857

Yours is revision. Pickens is straight from the horse's mouth, or perhaps another orifice.

Walt

989 posted on 06/07/2002 4:39:55 AM PDT by WhiskeyPapa
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To: lentulusgracchus
Elenchus for 4CJ. The States were the People,...

Straight out of "1984", just like the rest of the neo-reb rant.

Walt

990 posted on 06/07/2002 4:41:44 AM PDT by WhiskeyPapa
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To: lentulusgracchus
The source of their distress was people like you.

You can always count of distress from me directly proportional to your attacks on the Union.

Walt

991 posted on 06/07/2002 4:43:14 AM PDT by WhiskeyPapa
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To: x
What the 20th century made of the Constitution is another matter, though. It reimposed regulation and regimentation at the federal level.

Features of government don't appear in isolation. A University of Houston professor taught a distance-education course a couple of years ago in which, unusually, he surveyed the stresses of American social and political life as seen through the prism of Hollywood. The concept was, that Hollywood puts up on the screen the themes and preoccupations that are on people's minds, and while the representations aren't even wildly approximate to the precision of a modern survey or long-form Census, nevertheless for the period of interest they incorporate additional information about the period about social conventions, fashion, preoccupations, and taboos. (Imagine what would have happened if Michael Jackson's or Rob Lowe's scandals had surfaced during, say, the trial of Fatty Arbuckle.)

Regardless of the distortions and deliberate suppression of really controversial issues (what will 24th-century filmgoers make of Arlington Road, I wonder?), the course did demonstrate the reflection, in film, of themes of psychological tension caused by the regimentation by business of urban and industrial life at the end of the 19th century, and the simultaneous (but unrelated? -- I don't recall) epochal shift in thinking from literalism and composition of thoughts based on the parsed and printed word, to the kind of thinking based on images and impressions, which the lecturer referred to as the more modern and, for membership in our era rather than the "premodern" era, determinative. These two developments occurred about the same time but I don't recall whether they were supposed to be causally related. I bring them up more to refer to the change in the work environment and the social environment, as cities became chicken coops (which the New Urbanism is trying to replicate) and workers became flogged peons in many industries. My own great-grandfather, who had personally known Bill Hickock, ridden as a scout with Custer, and watched the frontier settled and closed, in his last years with the Southern Pacific R.R. (I have his conductor's watch, a gold-plated and engraved Illinois Bunn Special) in the 1920's was working at the Indianapolis station, 12 hours a day, 7 days a week.......that's an 84-hour workweek, boys and girls, for a septuagenarian!

992 posted on 06/07/2002 5:09:54 AM PDT by lentulusgracchus
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To: lentulusgracchus
The States were the People, and the People by sovereign acts not ordinances, seceded.

Wouldn't the -People- have to pass a -single- ordinance?

There is only sovereign of the United States and that is the people of the -whole- United States.

We are constantly bombarded with this nit-picky unreasonable/belittle the framers neo-reb rant.

Where is similar verbiage from the actual participants?

By the way, YOU can pass soevereign acts too. If you can back them up with force -- which the so-called CSA could not.

Walt

993 posted on 06/07/2002 5:31:31 AM PDT by WhiskeyPapa
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To: lentulusgracchus
You couldn't look down at Alexander Stephens, Judah Benjamin, and Bobby Lee unless you stood on your head.

Oh yes I can.

I took an oath to the Constitution, and I haven't broken it.

Walt

994 posted on 06/07/2002 5:44:14 AM PDT by WhiskeyPapa
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bump
995 posted on 06/07/2002 5:52:46 AM PDT by Non-Sequitur
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To: copperheadmike
The reasons to seek independence are irrelevant, it is the Right of the people to alter or abolish is what matters. If the British colonies had the Right, then the 13 Southern States did also.

But the colonists recognized that their actions were a rebellion. They didn't pretend that their actions were legal and they didn't whine when the British tried to prevent them. If you want to compare your actions to the founding fathers then you have to begin by admitting that the federal government was within it's rights to try and prevent them.

996 posted on 06/07/2002 5:55:57 AM PDT by Non-Sequitur
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To: 4ConservativeJustices
No political dreamer [except Walt] was ever wild enough to think of breaking down the lines which separate the States, and of compounding the American people into one common mass.

Or, George Washington...

"The name of American, which belongs to you in your national capacity, must always exalt the just pride of patriotism, more than any appellation derived from local discriminations. "

997 posted on 06/07/2002 6:00:54 AM PDT by Non-Sequitur
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bump
998 posted on 06/07/2002 6:01:51 AM PDT by Non-Sequitur
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bump
999 posted on 06/07/2002 6:02:07 AM PDT by Non-Sequitur
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To: Non-Sequitur
Bingo! (I'm shameless, I admit it freely.)
1,000 posted on 06/07/2002 6:02:28 AM PDT by Non-Sequitur
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