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Could the South Have Won?
NY Books ^ | June 2002 ed. | James M. McPherson

Posted on 05/23/2002 8:52:25 AM PDT by stainlessbanner


The New York Review of Books
June 13, 2002

Review

Could the South Have Won?

By James M. McPherson

Look Away! A History of the Confederate States of America

by William C. Davis

The South vs. the South: How Anti-Confederate Southerners Shaped the Course of the Civil War

by William W. Freehling

Lee and His Army in Confederate History

by Gary W. Gallagher

The War Hits Home: The Civil War in Southeastern Virginia
by Brian Steel Wills

The field of Civil War history has produced more interpretative disputes than most historical events. Next to debates about the causes of the war, arguments about why the North won, or why the Confederacy lost (the difference in phraseology is significant), have generated some of the most heated but also most enlightening recent scholarship. The titles of four books reveal just some of the central themes of this argument: Why the North Won the Civil War (1960); How the North Won (1983); Why the South Lost the Civil War (1986); Why the Confederacy Lost (1992).

Answers to these why and how questions fall into two general categories: external and internal. Exter-nal interpretations usually phrase the question as Why did the North win? They focus on a comparison of Northern and Southern population, resources, economic capacity, leadership, or strategy, and conclude that Northern superiority in one or more of these explains Union victory. Internal explanations tend to ask, Why did the South lose? They focus mainly or entirely on the Confederacy and argue that internal divisions, dissensions, or inadequacies account for Confederate defeat.

The most durable interpretation is an external one. It was offered by General Robert E. Lee himself in a farewell address to his army after its surrender at Appomattox: "The Army of Northern Virginia has been compelled to yield to overwhelming numbers and resources."[1] This explanation enabled Southern whites to preserve their pride, to reconcile defeat with their sense of honor, even to maintain faith in the nobility of their cause while admitting that it had been lost. The Confederacy, in other words, was compelled to surrender not because its soldiers fought badly, or lacked courage, or suffered from poor leadership, or because its cause was wrong, but simply because the enemy had more men and guns. The South did not lose; Confederates wore themselves out whipping the Yankees and collapsed from glorious exhaustion. This interpretation became the mainstay of what has been called the Myth of the Lost Cause, which has sustained Southern pride in their Confederate forebears to this day. As one Virginian expressed it:

They never whipped us, Sir, unless they were four to one. If we had had anything like a fair chance, or less disparity of numbers, we should have won our cause and established our independence.[2]

In one form or another, this explanation has won support from scholars of Northern as well as Southern birth. In 1960 the historian Richard Current provided a succinct version of it. After reviewing the statistics of the North's "overwhelming numbers and resources" two and a half times the South's population, three times its railroad capacity, nine times its industrial production, and so on Current concluded that "surely, in view of the disparity of resources, it would have taken a miracle...to enable the South to win. As usual, God was on the side of the heaviest battalions."[3]

In 1990 Shelby Foote expressed this thesis in his inimitable fashion. Noting that many aspects of life in the North went on much as usual during the Civil War, Foote told Ken Burns on camera in the PBS documentary The Civil War that "the North fought that war with one hand behind its back." If necessary "the North simply would have brought that other arm out from behind its back. I don't think the South ever had a chance to win that war."[4]


At first glance, Current's and Foote's statements seem plausible. But upon reflection, a good many historians have questioned their explicit assertions that overwhelming numbers and resources made Northern victory inevitable. If that is true, the Confederate leaders who took their people to war in 1861 were guilty of criminal folly or colossal arrogance. They had read the census returns. They knew as much about the North's superiority in men, resources, and economic capacity as any modern historian. Yet they went to war confident of victory. Southern leaders were students of history. They could cite many examples of small nations that won or defended their independence against much more powerful enemies: Switzerland against the Hapsburg Empire; the Netherlands against Spain; Greece against the Ottomans. Their own ancestors had won independence from mighty Britain in 1783. The relative resources of the Confederacy vis-à-vis the Union in 1861 were greater than those of these other successful rebels.

The Confederacy waged a strategically defensive war to protect from conquest territory it already controlled and to preserve its armies from annihilation. To "win" that kind of war, the Confederacy did not need to invade and conquer the North or destroy its army and infrastructure; it needed only to hold out long enough to compel the North to the conclusion that the price of conquering the South and annihilating its armies was too great, as Britain had concluded with respect to the United States in 1781 or, for that matter, as the United States concluded with respect to Vietnam in 1972. Until 1865, cold-eyed military experts in Europe were almost unanimous in their conviction that Union armies could never conquer and subdue the 750,000 square miles of the Confederacy, as large as all of Western Europe. "No war of independence ever terminated unsuccessfully except where the disparity of force was far greater than it is in this case," pronounced the military analyst of the London Times in 1862. "Just as England during the revolution had to give up conquering the colonies so the North will have to give up conquering the South."[5]

Even after losing the war, many ex-Confederates stuck to this belief. General Joseph E. Johnston, one of the highest-ranking Confederate officers, insisted in 1874 that the Southern people had not been "guilty of the high crime of undertaking a war without the means of waging it successfully."[6] A decade later General Pierre G.T. Beauregard, who ranked just below Johnston, made the same point: "No people ever warred for independence with more relative advantages than the Confederates."[7]


If so, why did they lose the war? In thinly veiled terms, Johnston and Beauregard blamed the inept leadership of Jefferson Davis. That harried gentleman responded in kind; as far as he was concerned, the erratic and inadequate generalship of Beauregard and especially Johnston was responsible for Confederate defeat. In the eyes of many contemporaries and historians there was plenty of blame to go around. William C. Davis's Look Away! is the most recent "internal" study of the Confederacy that, by implication at least, attributes Confederate defeat to poor leadership at several levels, both military and civilian, as well as factionalism, dissension, and bickering between men with outsize egos and thin skins. In this version of Confederate history, only Robert E. Lee and Stonewall Jackson remain unstained.

For any believer in the Myth of the Lost Cause, any admirer of heroic Confederate resistance to overwhelming odds, the story told by Davis (no relation to the Confederate president) makes depressing reading. It is a story of conflicts not on the battlefields of Manassas or Shiloh or Gettysburg or Chickamauga or the Wilderness they are here, but offstage, as it were but conflicts between state governors and the Confederate government in Richmond, between quarreling Cabinet officers, between Jefferson Davis and prominent generals or senators or newspaper editors and even his vice-president, Alexander Stephens. Davis chronicles different examples of internal breakdown under the stresses not only of enemy invasion but also of slave defections to the Yankees, of Unionist disloyalty in the upcountry, particularly in such states as Tennessee, of galloping inflation and the inability of an unbalanced agricultural society under siege to control it, of shortages and hunger and a growing bitterness and alienation among large elements of the population.

These problems seemed more than sufficient to ensure Confederate failure, but they were greatly exacerbated by the jealousies and rivalries of Confederate politicians, which remain Davis's principal focus. He does not explicitly address the question of why the Confederacy lost, but his implicit answer lies in the assertion that "the fundamental flaw in too many of the big men of the Confederacy... [was] 'big-man-me-ism.'"

There are, however, two problems with this interpretation. In two senses it is too "internal." First, by concentrating only on the Confederacy it tends to leave the reader with the impression that only the Confederacy suffered from these corrosive rivalries, jealousies, and dissensions. But a history of the North during the Civil War would reveal similar problems, mitigated only by Lincoln's skill in holding together a diverse coalition of Republicans and War Democrats, Yankees and border states, abolitionists and slaveholders which perhaps suggests that Lincoln was the principal reason for Union victory. In any event, Look Away! is also too "internal" because the author is too deeply dependent on his sources. It is the nature of newspaper editorials, private correspondence, congressional debates, partisan speeches, and the like to emphasize conflict, criticism, argument, complaint. It is the squeaky wheel that squeaks. The historian needs to step back and gain some perspective on these sources, to recognize that the well-greased wheel that turns smoothly also turns quietly, leaving less evidence of its existence available to the historian.

Look Away! falls within one tradition of internal explanations for Confederate defeat. More prevalent, especially in recent years, have been studies that emphasize divisions and conflicts of race, class, and even gender in the South. Two fifths of the Confederate population were slaves, and two thirds of the whites did not belong to slaveholding families. What stake did they have in an independent Confederate nation whose original raison d'être was the protection of slavery? Not much stake at all, according to many historians, especially for the slaves and, as the war took an increasing toll on non-slaveholding white families, very little stake for them either. Even among slaveholding families, the women who willingly subscribed to an ethic of sacrifice in the war's early years became disillusioned as the lengthening war robbed them of husbands, sons, lovers, and brothers. Many white women turned against the war and spread this disaffection among their menfolk in the army; in the end, according to Drew Gilpin Faust, "it may well have been because of its women that the South lost the Civil War."[8]


If all this is true if the slaves and some nonslaveholding whites opposed the Confederate war effort from the outset and others including women of slaveholding families eventually turned against it, one need look no further to explain Confederate defeat. In The South vs. the South, however, William W. Freehling does not go this far. He says almost nothing about women as a separate category, and he acknowledges that many nonslaveholding whites had a racial, cultural, and even economic stake in the preservation of slavery and remained loyal Confederates to the end. But he maintains that, properly defined, half of all Southerners opposed the Confederacy and that this fact provides a sufficient explanation for Confederate failure.

Freehling defines the South as all fifteen slave states and Southerners as all people slave as well as free who lived in those states. This distinction between "the South" and the eleven slave states that formed the Confederacy is important but too often disregarded by those who casually conflate the South and the Confederacy. Admittedly, some 90,000 white men from the four Union slave states (Kentucky, Missouri, Maryland, and Delaware) fought for the Confederacy, but this number was offset by a similar number of whites from Confederate states (chiefly Tennessee and the part of Virginia that became West Virginia) who fought for the Union.

But Freehling's central thesis that "white Confederates were only half the Southerners" raises problems. This arithmetic works only if virtually all black Southerners are counted against the Confederacy. At times Freehling seems to argue that they should be so counted. At other times he is more cautious, maintaining that "the vast majority" of Southern blacks "either opposed the rebel cause or cared not whether it lived or died." Freehling does not make clear how important he considers that qualifying "or cared not." In any event, let us assume that all three million slaves who remained in the Confederacy (as well as the one million in the border states and in conquered Confederate regions) sympathized with the Union cause that would bring them freedom. Nevertheless, their unwilling labor as slaves was crucial to the Confederate economy and war effort, just as their unwilling labor and that of their forebears had been crucial to building the antebellum Southern economy. These Confederate slaves worked less efficiently than before the war because so many masters and overseers were absent at the front. Unwilling or not, however, they must be counted on the Confederate side of the equation, which significantly alters Freehling's 50/50 split of pro- and anti-Confederates in the South to something like 75/25.

Freehling draws on previous scholarship to offer a succinct narrative of the political and military course of the war, organized around Lincoln's slow but inexorable steps toward emancipation, "hard war," and the eventual mobilization of 300,000 black laborers and soldiers to work and fight for the Union. This narrative is marred by several errors, including the repeated confusion of General Charles F. Smith with General William F. "Baldy" Smith, the conflation of combat casualties with combat mortality, the mislabeling of a photograph of Confederate trenches at Fredericksburg as Petersburg, and the acceptance at face value of Alexander Stephens's absurd claim, made five years after Lincoln's death, that the Union president had urged him in 1865 to persuade Southern states to ratify the Thirteenth Amendment "prospectively," thereby delaying the abolition of slavery five years. Nevertheless, Freehling has made a strong case for the vital contribution of the two million whites and one million blacks in the South who definitely did support the Union cause. Without them, "the North" could not have prevailed, as Lincoln readily acknowledged.


Freehling does not take a clear stand on the question of whether Union victory was inevitable. At times he seems to imply that it was, because the half of all Southerners whom he claims supported the Union (actively or passively) doomed the Confederacy. But at other times he suggests that this support was contingent on the outcome of military campaigns and political decisions. No such ambiguity characterizes the essays in Gary Gallagher's Lee and His Army in Confederate History. In this book and in his earlier The Confederate War, Gallagher has argued forcefully and convincingly that Confederate nationalism bound most Southern whites together in determined support for the Confederate cause, that the brilliant though costly victories of Robert E. Lee's Army of Northern Virginia reinforced this determination, and that morale even in the face of defeat and the destruction of resources in 1864 1865 remained high until almost the end.

Gallagher does not slight the problems of slave defections to the Yankees, class tensions among whites, personal rivalries and jealousies among Confederate leaders, and other internal divisions that have occupied historians who see these problems as preordaining defeat. But he emphasizes the degree of white unity and strength of purpose despite these faultlines. Plenty of evidence exists to support this emphasis. A Union officer who was captured at the Battle of Atlanta on July 22, 1864, and spent the rest of the war in Southern prisons wrote in his diary on October 4 that from what he had seen in the South "the End of the War...is some time hence as the Idea of the Rebs giving up until they are completely subdued is all Moonshine they submit to privatations that would not be believed unless seen."[9]

"Until they are completely subdued." That point came in April 1865, when the large and well-equipped Union armies finally brought the starving, barefoot, and decimated ranks of Confederates to bay. Gallagher revives the overwhelming numbers and resources explanation for Confederate defeat, shorn of its false aura of inevitability. Numbers and resources do not prevail in war without the will and skill to use them. The Northern will wavered several times, most notably in response to Lee's victories in the summer of 1862 and winter spring of 1863 and the success of Lee's resistance to Grant's offensives in the spring and summer of 1864. Yet Union leaders and armies were learning the skills needed to win, and each time the Confederacy seemed on the edge of triumph, Northern victories blunted the Southern momentum: at Sharpsburg, Maryland, and Perryville, Kentucky, in the fall of 1862; at Gettysburg and Vicksburg in July 1863; and at Atlanta and in Virginia's Shenandoah Valley in September 1864. Better than any other historian of the Confederacy, Gallagher understands the importance of these contingent turning points that eventually made it possible for superior numbers and resources to prevail. He understands as well that the Confederate story cannot be written except in counterpoint with the Union story, and that because of the multiple contingencies in these stories, Northern victory was anything but inevitable.


Much of the best scholarship on the Civil War during the past decade has concentrated on the local or regional impact of the war. A fine example is Brian Steel Wills's The War Hits Home, a fascinating account of the home front and battle front in southeastern Virginia, especially the town of Suffolk and its hinterland just inland from Norfolk. No great battles took place here, but there was plenty of skirmishing and raids by combatants on both sides. Confederates controlled this region until May 1862, when they were compelled to pull back their defenses to Richmond. Union forces occupied Suffolk for the next year, staving off a halfhearted Confederate effort to recapture it in the spring of 1863. The Yankees subsequently fell back to a more defensible line nearer Norfolk, leaving the Suffolk region a sort of no man's land subject to raids and plundering by the cavalry of both armies.

Through it all most white inhabitants remained committed Confederates, while many of the slaves who were not removed by their owners to safer territory absconded to the Yankees, adding their weight to the Union side of the scales in the balance of power discussed by Freehling. White men from this region fought in several of Lee's regiments, suffering casualties that left many a household bereft of sons, husbands, fathers. Yet their Confederate loyalties scarcely wavered.

Northern occupation forces at first tried a policy of conciliation, hoping to win the Southern whites back to the Union. When this failed, they moved toward a harsher policy here as they did elsewhere, confiscating the property and liberating the slaves of people they now perceived as enemies to be crushed rather than deluded victims of secession conspirators to be converted.

Wills does not make a big point of it, but his findings stand "in sharp rebuttal" to the arguments of historians who portray a weak or divided white commitment to the Confederate cause as the reason for defeat. "These people sought to secure victory until there was no victory left to win." In the end the North did have greater numbers and resources, wielded with a skill and determination that by 1864 1865 matched the Confederacy's skills and determination; and these explain why the North won the Civil War.

Notes

[1] The Wartime Papers of R.E. Lee, edited by Clifford Dowdey and Louis H. Manarin (Little, Brown, 1961), p. 934.

[2] Quoted in Why the North Won the Civil War, edited by David Donald (Louisiana State University Press, 1960), p. ix.

[3] Richard N. Current, "God and the Strongest Battalions," in Why the North Won the Civil War, p. 22.

[4] "Men at War: An Interview with Shelby Foote," in Geoffrey C. Ward with Ric Burns and Ken Burns, The Civil War (Knopf, 1990), p. 272.

[5] London Times, August 29, 1862.

[6] Joseph E. Johnston, Narrative of Military Operations (Appleton, 1874), p. 421.

[7] Pierre G.T. Beauregard, "The First Battle of Bull Run," in Battles and Leaders of the Civil War, 4 volumes, edited by Robert U. Johnson and Clarence C. Buel (Century, 1887), Vol. 1, p. 222.

[8] Drew Gilpin Faust, "Altars of Sacrifice: Confederate Women and the Narratives of War," The Journal of American History, Vol. 76, No. 4 (March 1990), p. 1228.

[9] "The Civil War Diary of Colonel John Henry Smith," edited by David M. Smith, Iowa Journal of History, Vol. 47 (April 1949), p. 164.



TOPICS: Culture/Society
KEYWORDS: books; dixie; dixielist; jamesmcpherson; mcpherson; research; south
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To: Mortin Sult
I wonder if he has a Bible too or whether he relies on his "anointing" to tell him what to teach the youth in his charge...
781 posted on 06/01/2002 8:44:06 PM PDT by Terriergal
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To: Non-Sequitur
Doncha love CajunPrince's way of living out Colossians 4:5,6 ?
782 posted on 06/02/2002 1:53:05 PM PDT by Terriergal
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To: Terriergal
Truly a man lacking in the spirit of Christian charity to be sure. Still, I take to heart the words of Max Ehrman who tells us we should listen to others, even to the dull and the ignorant, they too have their story. On the other hand Ehrman also advises us to avoid loud and aggressive persons, they are vexations to the spirit. One can't do both when dealing with CajunPrince.
783 posted on 06/02/2002 2:35:03 PM PDT by Non-Sequitur
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Comment #784 Removed by Moderator

To: Aurelius
In an attempt to enlighten you, although I would probably have more likelihood of success at bench-pressing an elephant, a marriage is not a perpetual compact, it ends with the lives of those who made the compact.

And yet few enter a marriage with the idea of it being finite. It is assumed that it will continue indefinitely, which is what the framers assumed about the Union. As marriage should be the palladium for happiness between a couple, so Union is the palladium of safety and security of this nation -- as George Washington said.

One aspect of the neo-reb rant is its unreasonable nature.

Your whole position involves many camels passing through the eyes of many needles.

Walt

785 posted on 06/03/2002 2:32:53 AM PDT by WhiskeyPapa
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To: PsyOp
. In each and every battle, victory on either side was determined by the better general combined with the state of his troops moral and confidence.

Not attacking up mile-long hills well-covered by batteries may also have had something to do with it....Lee might have learned from the six charges up Malvern Hill that failed in 1862, during the Chickahominy campaign, but then he did it again at Gettysburg. Ouch.

By way of explanation, this was a habit officers on both sides had acquired in the Mexican war, when they got away with assaulting prepared positions defended by infantry and artillery repeatedly, because of the Napoleonic weapons they were facing and the inexperience of most of the Mexican troops. They wouldn't have gotten away with it against Wellington, but they weren't facing Wellington. So they, and Bobby Lee particularly, imbibed a deadly lesson. Thus Edward Bonekemper, How Robert E. Lee Lost the Civil War (Sergeant Kirkland's Press, Fredericksburg, Va.: 1998).

786 posted on 06/03/2002 2:42:24 AM PDT by lentulusgracchus
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To: Aurelius
a perpetual union made more perfect would not be perpetual.

Touche'! Habet! One ear and the tail, sir.

787 posted on 06/03/2002 2:47:04 AM PDT by lentulusgracchus
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To: Frumious Bandersnatch
May I be of assistance, suh? <still listening to "Dixie">

Now if I understand this aright, the supremacy clause basically states that the constitution (and laws made in pursuance thereof and treaties) stands as the supreme law of the land - even overriding any laws made by individual states.

Correctamundo.

Nothing in any subsequent amendments take away this power.

Not quite. All subsequent amendments modify everything that has been agreed to heretofore. But you are correct, the Supremacy Clause remains in place and was not repealed by any Amendment. Just beware that you don't walk on the reserved (undelegated) powers which are mentioned and warned about in the Ninth and Tenth Amendments. Which include the power of the People to act as Sovereign.

The question you will want to argue is, did the People of New York and Georgia give up their sovereignty, and cease to be a people -- cease to exist except as policy objects -- the minute they ratified the Constitution? Would you like to argue that the Constitution was like a locked room, in which the federal government replayed the scene of Odysseus and the suitors of Penelope, as soon as the doors closed behind them? Do you really want to argue that the Supremacy Clause gave the federal government, as soon as a State had ratified the Constitution, or joined the Union, the powers of a Roman paterfamilias, to cordon off a state, rope off and herd its people, cut them off and slay them, burn them down and take what was left to divide among the other states as spoil, because the States checked their sovereignty and their rights at the door, and that their rights -- and their fate -- became whatever today's triumphant faction in federal government said it was?

Think about this before you reply. I call it the "Penelope's Suitors" model of Union.

Secession, in this case, can be defined as breaking away from the federal government.

No. The word "government" isn't in it. Secession is a people-to-people political act, modeled on the Roman model in which the plebs physically removed themselves from the Roman civitas and passed, as a body, out of the jurisdiction of Roman law. They did so because they had the right to do so, because they weren't bound to the land, to the City, or to service.

The Southern States were Peoples, the same Peoples who had ratified the Constitution in the first place, and they didn't just legislate disunion like some pork-chop appropriations bill. They convened and sat, State by State, as a People, and exercised Sovereignty -- which cuts all deals, and trumps all powers and rights. Their act was above governments and constitutions. It was a sovereign act by a sovereign entity determining its own fate as if by revolution. The Southern States deliberated on various solutions to their discontents, and after more than 30 years of discussion, they went into convention, assumed their more awful aspect as the several Peoples, and seceded. They didn't rebel, as Lincoln trivialized their actions. What they did, they did by the highest right there is, for which they answered only to God Himself.

And then Abraham Lincoln conquered them, and made himself, as the First Magistrate of the United States Government, their master and Sovereign.

Pretty revolutionary, huh? I wonder if people in the People's Republic of Ohio ever got it. It's not too subtle -- like the difference between being your own person, and saying "sir" a lot.

788 posted on 06/03/2002 3:19:47 AM PDT by lentulusgracchus
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To: Non-Sequitur
Had Washington been alive in 1861 he would have been first in line to offer his services to Abraham Lincoln.

Had Ernest Hemingway been alive in 1861, he would have been first in line to offer his services to Victoria Woodhull.

And you say we Southerners have no sense of humor.

789 posted on 06/03/2002 3:23:49 AM PDT by lentulusgracchus
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To: Non-Sequitur
....The southern acts of secession were unconstitutional because the Supreme Court of the United States, in their wisdom and by a 5 to 3 margin in an 1869 decision, says that they are.

Quoting Article I, Section 9 (in part): "No Bill of Attainder or ex post facto Law shall be passed."

Pardon me if I point out that 1861 was anterior to 1869; that the Supreme Court is notorious for reading election returns and war news; and that they were....wrong, just as they were wrong in Plessey vs. Ferguson and United States vs. Miller.

And like I said, when we talk about Union and disunion, convention and ratification and secession, we're playing at a level above the Supreme Court's pay grade. The real answer was, the acts of secession voted by the conventions and plebiscites of the Southern States in 1860 and 1861 were ultra vires the United States and its federal courts.

790 posted on 06/03/2002 3:41:22 AM PDT by lentulusgracchus
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To: lentulusgracchus
If you want to say that the Supreme Court has issued some really wretched decisions then you get no arguement from me. Plessy v.Ferguson, Sanford v. Scott, and a host of others are all decisions I have problems understanding at times. But just because these decisions are wrong in our eyes, and even though they were later overturned does not take away their validity. And just because you believe that Justices in their decision in Texas v. White were...wrong does not overturn that decision. Texas v. White is valid and will remain valid until overruled by a Constitutional amendment or overturned by a future Supreme Court ruling. Unilateral secession as practiced by the confederates was not and is not legal.

You can quote Article 1, Section 9 all you want. It means nothing. This is not an example of an ex post facto law. It is the court ruling on the Constitutionality of a piece of legislation passed by the state of Texas. They ruled that act invalid.

791 posted on 06/03/2002 3:54:45 AM PDT by Non-Sequitur
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To: lentulusgracchus
And you say we Southerners have no sense of humor.

It's the Yankee influence since the war.

792 posted on 06/03/2002 3:55:49 AM PDT by Non-Sequitur
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To: big_fat_idiot
Could the South Have Won?

Could the Pig Have Flown?

The so-called seceded states' ability to consolidate their revolution aganst the lawful government was inversely proportional to the willingness of the loyal Union people to oppose them.

The rebels never had a chance. Sam Houston said, "They will never let you go."

Too bad he was shouted down by the traitors.

Walt

793 posted on 06/03/2002 4:08:11 AM PDT by WhiskeyPapa
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To: Frumious Bandersnatch
But then, I've never been a believer of the "living document" theory...

Good for you. Myself, I've always thought "living document" was just another anagram for "now we've got you!" and "screwed to the wall!"

794 posted on 06/03/2002 4:23:11 AM PDT by lentulusgracchus
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To: Frumious Bandersnatch
The Supremes have made some decisions wherein they tortured or added language (penumbras and emanations on Roe vs Wade for example) ....

Is an "emanation" the moral equivalent of "interstices"? Or is it more an ex post facto "penumbra"?

795 posted on 06/03/2002 4:26:56 AM PDT by lentulusgracchus
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To: Non-Sequitur
You can quote Article 1, Section 9 all you want. It means nothing.

No it doesn't mean "nothing"........unless you've seceded!

This is not an example of an ex post facto law. It is the court ruling on the Constitutionality of a piece of legislation passed by the state of Texas. They ruled that act invalid.

Point is, the decision was handed down in 1869, Helloooo! So it's not a valid reference when discussing the secession debates, any more than it is valid to teach a course on John Marshall, but then include scholiae all over the place on what Thurgood Marshall would have said about that, or what William O. Douglas invented later.

No more valid, either, than insinuating that the executive orders of Andrew Jackson and James Knox Polk were invalid because they owned slaves, in contravention of the XIIIth Amendment.

796 posted on 06/03/2002 4:40:21 AM PDT by lentulusgracchus
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To: Non-Sequitur
This is not an example of an ex post facto law.

Okay,.... <reconsidering>...then it's arguing a posteriori, which in historiography is called teleology. And it's a fallacy.

797 posted on 06/03/2002 4:43:30 AM PDT by lentulusgracchus
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To: WhiskeyPapa
The rebels never had a chance. Sam Houston said, "They will never let you go."

You have, I hope, from time to time noticed the difference between "we won't make it" and "we shouldn't try". Two different concepts, separated by moral courage. The latter is the hallmark of a slave.

798 posted on 06/03/2002 4:47:00 AM PDT by lentulusgracchus
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To: 4ConservativeJustices
Try this - pretend that you have a contract that contains only one solitary clause - the sumpremacy clause.

Now what rights and powers have been delegated, and what has been prohibited? None, on both counts - it's just a statement that asserts that this contract takes legal precedence over others.


True, except the supremacy clause does not stand alone in the U.S. Consititution.  So your argument is not applicable here, as there are plenty of delegated rights and powers that it refers to.
799 posted on 06/03/2002 6:18:06 AM PDT by Frumious Bandersnatch
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To: WhiskeyPapa
"One aspect of the neo-reb rant is its unreasonable nature."

"Ureasonable" is a subjective judgement; what appears unreasonable to you may appear perfectly reasonable to someone else. You suffer, rather seriously, from the illusion that subjective judgements on your part represent an objective reality. You will never be able to even begin to understand the world you live in until you overcome this malady. Unfortunately, your prognosis is not encouraging.

800 posted on 06/03/2002 6:54:01 AM PDT by Aurelius
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