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Could the South Have Won?
NY Books ^ | June 2002 ed. | James M. McPherson

Posted on 05/23/2002 8:52:25 AM PDT by stainlessbanner


The New York Review of Books
June 13, 2002

Review

Could the South Have Won?

By James M. McPherson

Look Away! A History of the Confederate States of America

by William C. Davis

The South vs. the South: How Anti-Confederate Southerners Shaped the Course of the Civil War

by William W. Freehling

Lee and His Army in Confederate History

by Gary W. Gallagher

The War Hits Home: The Civil War in Southeastern Virginia
by Brian Steel Wills

The field of Civil War history has produced more interpretative disputes than most historical events. Next to debates about the causes of the war, arguments about why the North won, or why the Confederacy lost (the difference in phraseology is significant), have generated some of the most heated but also most enlightening recent scholarship. The titles of four books reveal just some of the central themes of this argument: Why the North Won the Civil War (1960); How the North Won (1983); Why the South Lost the Civil War (1986); Why the Confederacy Lost (1992).

Answers to these why and how questions fall into two general categories: external and internal. Exter-nal interpretations usually phrase the question as Why did the North win? They focus on a comparison of Northern and Southern population, resources, economic capacity, leadership, or strategy, and conclude that Northern superiority in one or more of these explains Union victory. Internal explanations tend to ask, Why did the South lose? They focus mainly or entirely on the Confederacy and argue that internal divisions, dissensions, or inadequacies account for Confederate defeat.

The most durable interpretation is an external one. It was offered by General Robert E. Lee himself in a farewell address to his army after its surrender at Appomattox: "The Army of Northern Virginia has been compelled to yield to overwhelming numbers and resources."[1] This explanation enabled Southern whites to preserve their pride, to reconcile defeat with their sense of honor, even to maintain faith in the nobility of their cause while admitting that it had been lost. The Confederacy, in other words, was compelled to surrender not because its soldiers fought badly, or lacked courage, or suffered from poor leadership, or because its cause was wrong, but simply because the enemy had more men and guns. The South did not lose; Confederates wore themselves out whipping the Yankees and collapsed from glorious exhaustion. This interpretation became the mainstay of what has been called the Myth of the Lost Cause, which has sustained Southern pride in their Confederate forebears to this day. As one Virginian expressed it:

They never whipped us, Sir, unless they were four to one. If we had had anything like a fair chance, or less disparity of numbers, we should have won our cause and established our independence.[2]

In one form or another, this explanation has won support from scholars of Northern as well as Southern birth. In 1960 the historian Richard Current provided a succinct version of it. After reviewing the statistics of the North's "overwhelming numbers and resources" two and a half times the South's population, three times its railroad capacity, nine times its industrial production, and so on Current concluded that "surely, in view of the disparity of resources, it would have taken a miracle...to enable the South to win. As usual, God was on the side of the heaviest battalions."[3]

In 1990 Shelby Foote expressed this thesis in his inimitable fashion. Noting that many aspects of life in the North went on much as usual during the Civil War, Foote told Ken Burns on camera in the PBS documentary The Civil War that "the North fought that war with one hand behind its back." If necessary "the North simply would have brought that other arm out from behind its back. I don't think the South ever had a chance to win that war."[4]


At first glance, Current's and Foote's statements seem plausible. But upon reflection, a good many historians have questioned their explicit assertions that overwhelming numbers and resources made Northern victory inevitable. If that is true, the Confederate leaders who took their people to war in 1861 were guilty of criminal folly or colossal arrogance. They had read the census returns. They knew as much about the North's superiority in men, resources, and economic capacity as any modern historian. Yet they went to war confident of victory. Southern leaders were students of history. They could cite many examples of small nations that won or defended their independence against much more powerful enemies: Switzerland against the Hapsburg Empire; the Netherlands against Spain; Greece against the Ottomans. Their own ancestors had won independence from mighty Britain in 1783. The relative resources of the Confederacy vis-à-vis the Union in 1861 were greater than those of these other successful rebels.

The Confederacy waged a strategically defensive war to protect from conquest territory it already controlled and to preserve its armies from annihilation. To "win" that kind of war, the Confederacy did not need to invade and conquer the North or destroy its army and infrastructure; it needed only to hold out long enough to compel the North to the conclusion that the price of conquering the South and annihilating its armies was too great, as Britain had concluded with respect to the United States in 1781 or, for that matter, as the United States concluded with respect to Vietnam in 1972. Until 1865, cold-eyed military experts in Europe were almost unanimous in their conviction that Union armies could never conquer and subdue the 750,000 square miles of the Confederacy, as large as all of Western Europe. "No war of independence ever terminated unsuccessfully except where the disparity of force was far greater than it is in this case," pronounced the military analyst of the London Times in 1862. "Just as England during the revolution had to give up conquering the colonies so the North will have to give up conquering the South."[5]

Even after losing the war, many ex-Confederates stuck to this belief. General Joseph E. Johnston, one of the highest-ranking Confederate officers, insisted in 1874 that the Southern people had not been "guilty of the high crime of undertaking a war without the means of waging it successfully."[6] A decade later General Pierre G.T. Beauregard, who ranked just below Johnston, made the same point: "No people ever warred for independence with more relative advantages than the Confederates."[7]


If so, why did they lose the war? In thinly veiled terms, Johnston and Beauregard blamed the inept leadership of Jefferson Davis. That harried gentleman responded in kind; as far as he was concerned, the erratic and inadequate generalship of Beauregard and especially Johnston was responsible for Confederate defeat. In the eyes of many contemporaries and historians there was plenty of blame to go around. William C. Davis's Look Away! is the most recent "internal" study of the Confederacy that, by implication at least, attributes Confederate defeat to poor leadership at several levels, both military and civilian, as well as factionalism, dissension, and bickering between men with outsize egos and thin skins. In this version of Confederate history, only Robert E. Lee and Stonewall Jackson remain unstained.

For any believer in the Myth of the Lost Cause, any admirer of heroic Confederate resistance to overwhelming odds, the story told by Davis (no relation to the Confederate president) makes depressing reading. It is a story of conflicts not on the battlefields of Manassas or Shiloh or Gettysburg or Chickamauga or the Wilderness they are here, but offstage, as it were but conflicts between state governors and the Confederate government in Richmond, between quarreling Cabinet officers, between Jefferson Davis and prominent generals or senators or newspaper editors and even his vice-president, Alexander Stephens. Davis chronicles different examples of internal breakdown under the stresses not only of enemy invasion but also of slave defections to the Yankees, of Unionist disloyalty in the upcountry, particularly in such states as Tennessee, of galloping inflation and the inability of an unbalanced agricultural society under siege to control it, of shortages and hunger and a growing bitterness and alienation among large elements of the population.

These problems seemed more than sufficient to ensure Confederate failure, but they were greatly exacerbated by the jealousies and rivalries of Confederate politicians, which remain Davis's principal focus. He does not explicitly address the question of why the Confederacy lost, but his implicit answer lies in the assertion that "the fundamental flaw in too many of the big men of the Confederacy... [was] 'big-man-me-ism.'"

There are, however, two problems with this interpretation. In two senses it is too "internal." First, by concentrating only on the Confederacy it tends to leave the reader with the impression that only the Confederacy suffered from these corrosive rivalries, jealousies, and dissensions. But a history of the North during the Civil War would reveal similar problems, mitigated only by Lincoln's skill in holding together a diverse coalition of Republicans and War Democrats, Yankees and border states, abolitionists and slaveholders which perhaps suggests that Lincoln was the principal reason for Union victory. In any event, Look Away! is also too "internal" because the author is too deeply dependent on his sources. It is the nature of newspaper editorials, private correspondence, congressional debates, partisan speeches, and the like to emphasize conflict, criticism, argument, complaint. It is the squeaky wheel that squeaks. The historian needs to step back and gain some perspective on these sources, to recognize that the well-greased wheel that turns smoothly also turns quietly, leaving less evidence of its existence available to the historian.

Look Away! falls within one tradition of internal explanations for Confederate defeat. More prevalent, especially in recent years, have been studies that emphasize divisions and conflicts of race, class, and even gender in the South. Two fifths of the Confederate population were slaves, and two thirds of the whites did not belong to slaveholding families. What stake did they have in an independent Confederate nation whose original raison d'être was the protection of slavery? Not much stake at all, according to many historians, especially for the slaves and, as the war took an increasing toll on non-slaveholding white families, very little stake for them either. Even among slaveholding families, the women who willingly subscribed to an ethic of sacrifice in the war's early years became disillusioned as the lengthening war robbed them of husbands, sons, lovers, and brothers. Many white women turned against the war and spread this disaffection among their menfolk in the army; in the end, according to Drew Gilpin Faust, "it may well have been because of its women that the South lost the Civil War."[8]


If all this is true if the slaves and some nonslaveholding whites opposed the Confederate war effort from the outset and others including women of slaveholding families eventually turned against it, one need look no further to explain Confederate defeat. In The South vs. the South, however, William W. Freehling does not go this far. He says almost nothing about women as a separate category, and he acknowledges that many nonslaveholding whites had a racial, cultural, and even economic stake in the preservation of slavery and remained loyal Confederates to the end. But he maintains that, properly defined, half of all Southerners opposed the Confederacy and that this fact provides a sufficient explanation for Confederate failure.

Freehling defines the South as all fifteen slave states and Southerners as all people slave as well as free who lived in those states. This distinction between "the South" and the eleven slave states that formed the Confederacy is important but too often disregarded by those who casually conflate the South and the Confederacy. Admittedly, some 90,000 white men from the four Union slave states (Kentucky, Missouri, Maryland, and Delaware) fought for the Confederacy, but this number was offset by a similar number of whites from Confederate states (chiefly Tennessee and the part of Virginia that became West Virginia) who fought for the Union.

But Freehling's central thesis that "white Confederates were only half the Southerners" raises problems. This arithmetic works only if virtually all black Southerners are counted against the Confederacy. At times Freehling seems to argue that they should be so counted. At other times he is more cautious, maintaining that "the vast majority" of Southern blacks "either opposed the rebel cause or cared not whether it lived or died." Freehling does not make clear how important he considers that qualifying "or cared not." In any event, let us assume that all three million slaves who remained in the Confederacy (as well as the one million in the border states and in conquered Confederate regions) sympathized with the Union cause that would bring them freedom. Nevertheless, their unwilling labor as slaves was crucial to the Confederate economy and war effort, just as their unwilling labor and that of their forebears had been crucial to building the antebellum Southern economy. These Confederate slaves worked less efficiently than before the war because so many masters and overseers were absent at the front. Unwilling or not, however, they must be counted on the Confederate side of the equation, which significantly alters Freehling's 50/50 split of pro- and anti-Confederates in the South to something like 75/25.

Freehling draws on previous scholarship to offer a succinct narrative of the political and military course of the war, organized around Lincoln's slow but inexorable steps toward emancipation, "hard war," and the eventual mobilization of 300,000 black laborers and soldiers to work and fight for the Union. This narrative is marred by several errors, including the repeated confusion of General Charles F. Smith with General William F. "Baldy" Smith, the conflation of combat casualties with combat mortality, the mislabeling of a photograph of Confederate trenches at Fredericksburg as Petersburg, and the acceptance at face value of Alexander Stephens's absurd claim, made five years after Lincoln's death, that the Union president had urged him in 1865 to persuade Southern states to ratify the Thirteenth Amendment "prospectively," thereby delaying the abolition of slavery five years. Nevertheless, Freehling has made a strong case for the vital contribution of the two million whites and one million blacks in the South who definitely did support the Union cause. Without them, "the North" could not have prevailed, as Lincoln readily acknowledged.


Freehling does not take a clear stand on the question of whether Union victory was inevitable. At times he seems to imply that it was, because the half of all Southerners whom he claims supported the Union (actively or passively) doomed the Confederacy. But at other times he suggests that this support was contingent on the outcome of military campaigns and political decisions. No such ambiguity characterizes the essays in Gary Gallagher's Lee and His Army in Confederate History. In this book and in his earlier The Confederate War, Gallagher has argued forcefully and convincingly that Confederate nationalism bound most Southern whites together in determined support for the Confederate cause, that the brilliant though costly victories of Robert E. Lee's Army of Northern Virginia reinforced this determination, and that morale even in the face of defeat and the destruction of resources in 1864 1865 remained high until almost the end.

Gallagher does not slight the problems of slave defections to the Yankees, class tensions among whites, personal rivalries and jealousies among Confederate leaders, and other internal divisions that have occupied historians who see these problems as preordaining defeat. But he emphasizes the degree of white unity and strength of purpose despite these faultlines. Plenty of evidence exists to support this emphasis. A Union officer who was captured at the Battle of Atlanta on July 22, 1864, and spent the rest of the war in Southern prisons wrote in his diary on October 4 that from what he had seen in the South "the End of the War...is some time hence as the Idea of the Rebs giving up until they are completely subdued is all Moonshine they submit to privatations that would not be believed unless seen."[9]

"Until they are completely subdued." That point came in April 1865, when the large and well-equipped Union armies finally brought the starving, barefoot, and decimated ranks of Confederates to bay. Gallagher revives the overwhelming numbers and resources explanation for Confederate defeat, shorn of its false aura of inevitability. Numbers and resources do not prevail in war without the will and skill to use them. The Northern will wavered several times, most notably in response to Lee's victories in the summer of 1862 and winter spring of 1863 and the success of Lee's resistance to Grant's offensives in the spring and summer of 1864. Yet Union leaders and armies were learning the skills needed to win, and each time the Confederacy seemed on the edge of triumph, Northern victories blunted the Southern momentum: at Sharpsburg, Maryland, and Perryville, Kentucky, in the fall of 1862; at Gettysburg and Vicksburg in July 1863; and at Atlanta and in Virginia's Shenandoah Valley in September 1864. Better than any other historian of the Confederacy, Gallagher understands the importance of these contingent turning points that eventually made it possible for superior numbers and resources to prevail. He understands as well that the Confederate story cannot be written except in counterpoint with the Union story, and that because of the multiple contingencies in these stories, Northern victory was anything but inevitable.


Much of the best scholarship on the Civil War during the past decade has concentrated on the local or regional impact of the war. A fine example is Brian Steel Wills's The War Hits Home, a fascinating account of the home front and battle front in southeastern Virginia, especially the town of Suffolk and its hinterland just inland from Norfolk. No great battles took place here, but there was plenty of skirmishing and raids by combatants on both sides. Confederates controlled this region until May 1862, when they were compelled to pull back their defenses to Richmond. Union forces occupied Suffolk for the next year, staving off a halfhearted Confederate effort to recapture it in the spring of 1863. The Yankees subsequently fell back to a more defensible line nearer Norfolk, leaving the Suffolk region a sort of no man's land subject to raids and plundering by the cavalry of both armies.

Through it all most white inhabitants remained committed Confederates, while many of the slaves who were not removed by their owners to safer territory absconded to the Yankees, adding their weight to the Union side of the scales in the balance of power discussed by Freehling. White men from this region fought in several of Lee's regiments, suffering casualties that left many a household bereft of sons, husbands, fathers. Yet their Confederate loyalties scarcely wavered.

Northern occupation forces at first tried a policy of conciliation, hoping to win the Southern whites back to the Union. When this failed, they moved toward a harsher policy here as they did elsewhere, confiscating the property and liberating the slaves of people they now perceived as enemies to be crushed rather than deluded victims of secession conspirators to be converted.

Wills does not make a big point of it, but his findings stand "in sharp rebuttal" to the arguments of historians who portray a weak or divided white commitment to the Confederate cause as the reason for defeat. "These people sought to secure victory until there was no victory left to win." In the end the North did have greater numbers and resources, wielded with a skill and determination that by 1864 1865 matched the Confederacy's skills and determination; and these explain why the North won the Civil War.

Notes

[1] The Wartime Papers of R.E. Lee, edited by Clifford Dowdey and Louis H. Manarin (Little, Brown, 1961), p. 934.

[2] Quoted in Why the North Won the Civil War, edited by David Donald (Louisiana State University Press, 1960), p. ix.

[3] Richard N. Current, "God and the Strongest Battalions," in Why the North Won the Civil War, p. 22.

[4] "Men at War: An Interview with Shelby Foote," in Geoffrey C. Ward with Ric Burns and Ken Burns, The Civil War (Knopf, 1990), p. 272.

[5] London Times, August 29, 1862.

[6] Joseph E. Johnston, Narrative of Military Operations (Appleton, 1874), p. 421.

[7] Pierre G.T. Beauregard, "The First Battle of Bull Run," in Battles and Leaders of the Civil War, 4 volumes, edited by Robert U. Johnson and Clarence C. Buel (Century, 1887), Vol. 1, p. 222.

[8] Drew Gilpin Faust, "Altars of Sacrifice: Confederate Women and the Narratives of War," The Journal of American History, Vol. 76, No. 4 (March 1990), p. 1228.

[9] "The Civil War Diary of Colonel John Henry Smith," edited by David M. Smith, Iowa Journal of History, Vol. 47 (April 1949), p. 164.



TOPICS: Culture/Society
KEYWORDS: books; dixie; dixielist; jamesmcpherson; mcpherson; research; south
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To: Willie Green
But they would still have had difficulty manufacturing a viable delivery system.

What, you've never heard of the dreaded Mule Bomb? I'm told Osama and the boys are working on it themselves...

61 posted on 05/23/2002 12:50:33 PM PDT by Billthedrill
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To: CajunPrince
Guess you missed those when you were searching for "saint" Sherman huh? Such a nice guy as to wish the murder of women and children. Kind of hard to say a man didn't do something when his own words prove you wrong isn't it?

Nobody ever declared Sherman a saint. However, it is worth noting the reasoning behind this estimation of what it would take to defeat the south.

What drove the leading citizens of the South was the preservation of slavery. Various declarations of scession, Confederate state constitutions, and the statements of people like Edmund Ruffin were quite clear about it. These were ideologues who were willing to fight a Civil War to preserve their right to enslave black people.

Ideological wars such as this one are not won by the conquest of land. The enemy have to be personally defeated, which was Sherman's real point. The reasoning is identical to our goal of unconditional surrender by Nazi Germany.

It's worth noting, BTW, that almost all of those "murdered" women and childred you're crying about, surived the war and died of old age....

62 posted on 05/23/2002 12:51:28 PM PDT by r9etb
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To: CajunPrince
No, actually I have it right. I would refer you to "Allegiance : Fort Sumter, Charleston, and the Beginning of the Civil War" by David Detzer. When he discussed the situation with the representatives of the South Carolina governor, Buchanan crafted the agreement in such a way as to allow the movement of troops already in Charleston from one post to another. Major Anderson's movement from Moultrie to Sumter was in keeping with that agreement. The southern tresspass into Pinkney and Moultrie was not. But I digress, what was the other agreements you were referring to? I confess that I had not heard of them.
63 posted on 05/23/2002 12:54:29 PM PDT by Non-Sequitur
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To: CajunPrince
Nonsense. Even if one stipulates some sort of agreement against reinforcement, transfer from one post to another within the federal facilities at the site does not constitute that.
64 posted on 05/23/2002 12:55:14 PM PDT by steve-b
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To: CajunPrince
It would seem that the yankee government broke the promise first, as usual.

You should try reading for comprehension. The short history you provided simply proves the aggressive intent of the South.

65 posted on 05/23/2002 12:55:27 PM PDT by r9etb
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To: CajunPrince
"There is a class of people in the South, men, women and children, who must be killed or banished before you can hope for peace and order." --- General William T. Sherman General Thomas Ewing

Can you name one civilian executed by Sherman's men or on his orders?

Forty loyal Texans were hanged in Gainesville, Texas during October 1862, simply for being loyal to the U.S. Twenty-two loyal North Carlinians were similarly executed by CSA forces. About 180 murders were committed in the Raid on Lawrence, Kansas. Fifty-three Union soldiers were murdered at Saltville, Virginia in October, 1864, and between 3-400 Union soldiers were murdered in cold blood at Fort Pillow. I make that about 600 murders.

There were no similar acts on the U.S. side.

Walt

66 posted on 05/23/2002 12:56:00 PM PDT by WhiskeyPapa
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Comment #67 Removed by Moderator

To: weikel
even if you hate him( I'm sure you do) you gotta admit was the greatest military genius of the war

The Civil War was really the first modern war, in the sense that it involved large armies travelling engaging in protracted campaigns over vast distances, with tremendous logistical requirements.

Sherman's success was rooted in his recognition that if you can wreck the logistical tail, you can defeat the army it serves.

This is such an obvious thing now -- it's the very first thing we do in any war we fight. But Sherman did it first, and thoroughly.

68 posted on 05/23/2002 1:00:37 PM PDT by r9etb
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To: Billthedrill
What, you've never heard of the dreaded Mule Bomb?
I'm told Osama and the boys are working on it themselves...

The Teamsters' Union was at it's peak back then,
They never would've let the Southern Scabs (predecessors to the SS) past the picket line!

69 posted on 05/23/2002 1:02:00 PM PDT by Willie Green
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To: CajunPrince
You forgot this one:

"War is the remedy our enemies have chosen. And I say let us give them all they want; not a word of argument, not a sign of let up, no cave-in until we are whipped - or they are."

And this one:

"You cannot qualify war in harsher terms than I will. War is cruelty, and you cannot refine it; and those who brought war into our country deserve all the curses and maledictions a people can pour out."

And this one:

"I myself have seen in Missouri, Kentucky, Tennessee, and Mississippi, hundreds and thousands of women and children fleeing from your armies and desperadoes, hungry and with bleeding feet. In Memphis, Vicksburg, and Mississippi, we fed thousands upon thousands of the families of rebel soldiers left on our hands, and whom we could not see starve. Now that war comes home to you, you feel very different. You deprecate its horrors, but did not feel them when you sent car-loads of soldiers and ammunition, and moulded shells and shot, to carry war into Kentucky and Tennessee, to desolate the homes of hundreds and thousands of good people who only asked to live in peace at their old homes and under the Government of their inheritance."

70 posted on 05/23/2002 1:02:49 PM PDT by Non-Sequitur
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To: WhiskeyPapa
"Prove it."

Another bug in your response generating software, Walt. You can't answer "Prove it" to a statement of opinion.

71 posted on 05/23/2002 1:03:20 PM PDT by Aurelius
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To: CajunPrince
Hmmmmm...interesting theory.

"War is Hell."

-- William T. Sherman, in response to a complaint remarkably like yours.

But of course, as it really happened Sherman's men did not go around "murdering children." That's just you acting like a typical FR pro-confederate.

More likely, in fact, Sherman's tactics probably saved a lot more lives than they cost.

72 posted on 05/23/2002 1:04:27 PM PDT by r9etb
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Comment #73 Removed by Moderator

To: CajunPrince
"With us, when a leader dies, all good men go to lying about him...Abraham Lincoln has almost disappeared from human knowledge. I hear of him, and I read of him in eulogies and biographies, but I fail to recognize the man I knew in life" --- General Don Piatt, Federal Army officer

Those that knew Lincoln, knew him well. Thank you sir.

74 posted on 05/23/2002 1:07:36 PM PDT by 4CJ
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Comment #75 Removed by Moderator

Comment #76 Removed by Moderator

Comment #77 Removed by Moderator

To: r9etb
Had the South attempted to sustain guerilla warfare, it is likely that Southern resistance would have eventually led to some sort of deal being struck. Southern guerilla operations were usually rather succesful- small, capable groups of light horse for example- in destroying Union supplies and demoralizinf occupying forces. With the addition of men- based around their homes- engaging in non-conventional attacks on railroads, supply depots, camps, and the like, then fading into the woods or general populace, even greater damage could be done, and this style of operation continued even after the last area of Confederate military control collapsed. Eventually, with casualties and war expenditures mounting, the Northern populace would become weary of a war in which there seemed to be no signs of victory, and one in which, were there victory, they were unlikely to profit much- which was the case in the West, where the subjication and destruction of the indeginous tribes meant an opening of free land and immense stores of wealth. There, long, seemingly victory-less campaigns were more politically feasible, and in the end more likely to succeed, as Indian populations were small and often poorly equiped.

However, the Southern leadership recognized that a war of guerilla tactics was likely to leave the South in ruin far greater than the late war, and thus, wisely I think, chose to completely disband their armies and sue for complete peace and a total end to hostilities.

78 posted on 05/23/2002 1:15:38 PM PDT by Cleburne
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To: WhiskeyPapa
Had the so-called CSA been as committed to the cause as the colonists of 1776 had been, they would have been impossible to defeat.

Horsehockey Walt....one cannot compare a war with an enemy having to send an expeditionary force across the Atlantic with a nation at war with a huge and more powerful neighbor at their doorstep. Not to mention that fortunately Britian was preoccupied on other fronts quite unlike the Union.

I will admit this: Had the North been blessed with the caliber of General Officers the South had throughout the war, it would have been over in short order. Aside from Grant, Sherman, and Sheridan..and a handful of others...the North had some piss poor military leaders. On the Southern side, it was the complete opposite. Sure we had Pemberton and Bragg and a few other willynillys but we had a load of top notch field commanders. I shudder to think had Bedford Forrest or TJ Jackson been in charge of Union forces from the getgo...perish the thought.

79 posted on 05/23/2002 1:16:18 PM PDT by wardaddy
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To: CajunPrince
Why talk about killing women and children if you're not going to do it? For fun?

It would seem so, judging from the number of "nuke the Ay-rabs" rants (as distinguished from serious comments on the need to break the back of terrorist organizations and support) on FR.

And why bring up traitors to the Confederate government

Anyone who remained loyal to the Union could not be a "traitor" to the Confederate regime, by definition. (Someone who declared loyalty to the Confederacy and then reneged could be such a traitor, but you have produced no evidence that this describes any of the examples cited.)

Do you think that if there were Confederate loyalists in northern states

BWAAAHAHAHA!! You really shouldn't exhibit your ignorance in public.

The fact is, there were fairly large numbers of "Copperheads" in the loyal states. There were incidents of mob violence and unjustified government action against them, but I know of no examples comparable to the outright official murders described earlier in the thread. If you care to cite any, the ball is in your court.

Does this mean that during the Revolution, when the people loyal to Britain were killed for their loyality, that our founding fathers were guilty of "murder"?

Are you referring to death in combat (which happened quite a bit between Tories and Rebels)?

80 posted on 05/23/2002 1:16:45 PM PDT by steve-b
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