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Could the South Have Won?
NY Books ^ | June 2002 ed. | James M. McPherson

Posted on 05/23/2002 8:52:25 AM PDT by stainlessbanner


The New York Review of Books
June 13, 2002

Review

Could the South Have Won?

By James M. McPherson

Look Away! A History of the Confederate States of America

by William C. Davis

The South vs. the South: How Anti-Confederate Southerners Shaped the Course of the Civil War

by William W. Freehling

Lee and His Army in Confederate History

by Gary W. Gallagher

The War Hits Home: The Civil War in Southeastern Virginia
by Brian Steel Wills

The field of Civil War history has produced more interpretative disputes than most historical events. Next to debates about the causes of the war, arguments about why the North won, or why the Confederacy lost (the difference in phraseology is significant), have generated some of the most heated but also most enlightening recent scholarship. The titles of four books reveal just some of the central themes of this argument: Why the North Won the Civil War (1960); How the North Won (1983); Why the South Lost the Civil War (1986); Why the Confederacy Lost (1992).

Answers to these why and how questions fall into two general categories: external and internal. Exter-nal interpretations usually phrase the question as Why did the North win? They focus on a comparison of Northern and Southern population, resources, economic capacity, leadership, or strategy, and conclude that Northern superiority in one or more of these explains Union victory. Internal explanations tend to ask, Why did the South lose? They focus mainly or entirely on the Confederacy and argue that internal divisions, dissensions, or inadequacies account for Confederate defeat.

The most durable interpretation is an external one. It was offered by General Robert E. Lee himself in a farewell address to his army after its surrender at Appomattox: "The Army of Northern Virginia has been compelled to yield to overwhelming numbers and resources."[1] This explanation enabled Southern whites to preserve their pride, to reconcile defeat with their sense of honor, even to maintain faith in the nobility of their cause while admitting that it had been lost. The Confederacy, in other words, was compelled to surrender not because its soldiers fought badly, or lacked courage, or suffered from poor leadership, or because its cause was wrong, but simply because the enemy had more men and guns. The South did not lose; Confederates wore themselves out whipping the Yankees and collapsed from glorious exhaustion. This interpretation became the mainstay of what has been called the Myth of the Lost Cause, which has sustained Southern pride in their Confederate forebears to this day. As one Virginian expressed it:

They never whipped us, Sir, unless they were four to one. If we had had anything like a fair chance, or less disparity of numbers, we should have won our cause and established our independence.[2]

In one form or another, this explanation has won support from scholars of Northern as well as Southern birth. In 1960 the historian Richard Current provided a succinct version of it. After reviewing the statistics of the North's "overwhelming numbers and resources" two and a half times the South's population, three times its railroad capacity, nine times its industrial production, and so on Current concluded that "surely, in view of the disparity of resources, it would have taken a miracle...to enable the South to win. As usual, God was on the side of the heaviest battalions."[3]

In 1990 Shelby Foote expressed this thesis in his inimitable fashion. Noting that many aspects of life in the North went on much as usual during the Civil War, Foote told Ken Burns on camera in the PBS documentary The Civil War that "the North fought that war with one hand behind its back." If necessary "the North simply would have brought that other arm out from behind its back. I don't think the South ever had a chance to win that war."[4]


At first glance, Current's and Foote's statements seem plausible. But upon reflection, a good many historians have questioned their explicit assertions that overwhelming numbers and resources made Northern victory inevitable. If that is true, the Confederate leaders who took their people to war in 1861 were guilty of criminal folly or colossal arrogance. They had read the census returns. They knew as much about the North's superiority in men, resources, and economic capacity as any modern historian. Yet they went to war confident of victory. Southern leaders were students of history. They could cite many examples of small nations that won or defended their independence against much more powerful enemies: Switzerland against the Hapsburg Empire; the Netherlands against Spain; Greece against the Ottomans. Their own ancestors had won independence from mighty Britain in 1783. The relative resources of the Confederacy vis-à-vis the Union in 1861 were greater than those of these other successful rebels.

The Confederacy waged a strategically defensive war to protect from conquest territory it already controlled and to preserve its armies from annihilation. To "win" that kind of war, the Confederacy did not need to invade and conquer the North or destroy its army and infrastructure; it needed only to hold out long enough to compel the North to the conclusion that the price of conquering the South and annihilating its armies was too great, as Britain had concluded with respect to the United States in 1781 or, for that matter, as the United States concluded with respect to Vietnam in 1972. Until 1865, cold-eyed military experts in Europe were almost unanimous in their conviction that Union armies could never conquer and subdue the 750,000 square miles of the Confederacy, as large as all of Western Europe. "No war of independence ever terminated unsuccessfully except where the disparity of force was far greater than it is in this case," pronounced the military analyst of the London Times in 1862. "Just as England during the revolution had to give up conquering the colonies so the North will have to give up conquering the South."[5]

Even after losing the war, many ex-Confederates stuck to this belief. General Joseph E. Johnston, one of the highest-ranking Confederate officers, insisted in 1874 that the Southern people had not been "guilty of the high crime of undertaking a war without the means of waging it successfully."[6] A decade later General Pierre G.T. Beauregard, who ranked just below Johnston, made the same point: "No people ever warred for independence with more relative advantages than the Confederates."[7]


If so, why did they lose the war? In thinly veiled terms, Johnston and Beauregard blamed the inept leadership of Jefferson Davis. That harried gentleman responded in kind; as far as he was concerned, the erratic and inadequate generalship of Beauregard and especially Johnston was responsible for Confederate defeat. In the eyes of many contemporaries and historians there was plenty of blame to go around. William C. Davis's Look Away! is the most recent "internal" study of the Confederacy that, by implication at least, attributes Confederate defeat to poor leadership at several levels, both military and civilian, as well as factionalism, dissension, and bickering between men with outsize egos and thin skins. In this version of Confederate history, only Robert E. Lee and Stonewall Jackson remain unstained.

For any believer in the Myth of the Lost Cause, any admirer of heroic Confederate resistance to overwhelming odds, the story told by Davis (no relation to the Confederate president) makes depressing reading. It is a story of conflicts not on the battlefields of Manassas or Shiloh or Gettysburg or Chickamauga or the Wilderness they are here, but offstage, as it were but conflicts between state governors and the Confederate government in Richmond, between quarreling Cabinet officers, between Jefferson Davis and prominent generals or senators or newspaper editors and even his vice-president, Alexander Stephens. Davis chronicles different examples of internal breakdown under the stresses not only of enemy invasion but also of slave defections to the Yankees, of Unionist disloyalty in the upcountry, particularly in such states as Tennessee, of galloping inflation and the inability of an unbalanced agricultural society under siege to control it, of shortages and hunger and a growing bitterness and alienation among large elements of the population.

These problems seemed more than sufficient to ensure Confederate failure, but they were greatly exacerbated by the jealousies and rivalries of Confederate politicians, which remain Davis's principal focus. He does not explicitly address the question of why the Confederacy lost, but his implicit answer lies in the assertion that "the fundamental flaw in too many of the big men of the Confederacy... [was] 'big-man-me-ism.'"

There are, however, two problems with this interpretation. In two senses it is too "internal." First, by concentrating only on the Confederacy it tends to leave the reader with the impression that only the Confederacy suffered from these corrosive rivalries, jealousies, and dissensions. But a history of the North during the Civil War would reveal similar problems, mitigated only by Lincoln's skill in holding together a diverse coalition of Republicans and War Democrats, Yankees and border states, abolitionists and slaveholders which perhaps suggests that Lincoln was the principal reason for Union victory. In any event, Look Away! is also too "internal" because the author is too deeply dependent on his sources. It is the nature of newspaper editorials, private correspondence, congressional debates, partisan speeches, and the like to emphasize conflict, criticism, argument, complaint. It is the squeaky wheel that squeaks. The historian needs to step back and gain some perspective on these sources, to recognize that the well-greased wheel that turns smoothly also turns quietly, leaving less evidence of its existence available to the historian.

Look Away! falls within one tradition of internal explanations for Confederate defeat. More prevalent, especially in recent years, have been studies that emphasize divisions and conflicts of race, class, and even gender in the South. Two fifths of the Confederate population were slaves, and two thirds of the whites did not belong to slaveholding families. What stake did they have in an independent Confederate nation whose original raison d'être was the protection of slavery? Not much stake at all, according to many historians, especially for the slaves and, as the war took an increasing toll on non-slaveholding white families, very little stake for them either. Even among slaveholding families, the women who willingly subscribed to an ethic of sacrifice in the war's early years became disillusioned as the lengthening war robbed them of husbands, sons, lovers, and brothers. Many white women turned against the war and spread this disaffection among their menfolk in the army; in the end, according to Drew Gilpin Faust, "it may well have been because of its women that the South lost the Civil War."[8]


If all this is true if the slaves and some nonslaveholding whites opposed the Confederate war effort from the outset and others including women of slaveholding families eventually turned against it, one need look no further to explain Confederate defeat. In The South vs. the South, however, William W. Freehling does not go this far. He says almost nothing about women as a separate category, and he acknowledges that many nonslaveholding whites had a racial, cultural, and even economic stake in the preservation of slavery and remained loyal Confederates to the end. But he maintains that, properly defined, half of all Southerners opposed the Confederacy and that this fact provides a sufficient explanation for Confederate failure.

Freehling defines the South as all fifteen slave states and Southerners as all people slave as well as free who lived in those states. This distinction between "the South" and the eleven slave states that formed the Confederacy is important but too often disregarded by those who casually conflate the South and the Confederacy. Admittedly, some 90,000 white men from the four Union slave states (Kentucky, Missouri, Maryland, and Delaware) fought for the Confederacy, but this number was offset by a similar number of whites from Confederate states (chiefly Tennessee and the part of Virginia that became West Virginia) who fought for the Union.

But Freehling's central thesis that "white Confederates were only half the Southerners" raises problems. This arithmetic works only if virtually all black Southerners are counted against the Confederacy. At times Freehling seems to argue that they should be so counted. At other times he is more cautious, maintaining that "the vast majority" of Southern blacks "either opposed the rebel cause or cared not whether it lived or died." Freehling does not make clear how important he considers that qualifying "or cared not." In any event, let us assume that all three million slaves who remained in the Confederacy (as well as the one million in the border states and in conquered Confederate regions) sympathized with the Union cause that would bring them freedom. Nevertheless, their unwilling labor as slaves was crucial to the Confederate economy and war effort, just as their unwilling labor and that of their forebears had been crucial to building the antebellum Southern economy. These Confederate slaves worked less efficiently than before the war because so many masters and overseers were absent at the front. Unwilling or not, however, they must be counted on the Confederate side of the equation, which significantly alters Freehling's 50/50 split of pro- and anti-Confederates in the South to something like 75/25.

Freehling draws on previous scholarship to offer a succinct narrative of the political and military course of the war, organized around Lincoln's slow but inexorable steps toward emancipation, "hard war," and the eventual mobilization of 300,000 black laborers and soldiers to work and fight for the Union. This narrative is marred by several errors, including the repeated confusion of General Charles F. Smith with General William F. "Baldy" Smith, the conflation of combat casualties with combat mortality, the mislabeling of a photograph of Confederate trenches at Fredericksburg as Petersburg, and the acceptance at face value of Alexander Stephens's absurd claim, made five years after Lincoln's death, that the Union president had urged him in 1865 to persuade Southern states to ratify the Thirteenth Amendment "prospectively," thereby delaying the abolition of slavery five years. Nevertheless, Freehling has made a strong case for the vital contribution of the two million whites and one million blacks in the South who definitely did support the Union cause. Without them, "the North" could not have prevailed, as Lincoln readily acknowledged.


Freehling does not take a clear stand on the question of whether Union victory was inevitable. At times he seems to imply that it was, because the half of all Southerners whom he claims supported the Union (actively or passively) doomed the Confederacy. But at other times he suggests that this support was contingent on the outcome of military campaigns and political decisions. No such ambiguity characterizes the essays in Gary Gallagher's Lee and His Army in Confederate History. In this book and in his earlier The Confederate War, Gallagher has argued forcefully and convincingly that Confederate nationalism bound most Southern whites together in determined support for the Confederate cause, that the brilliant though costly victories of Robert E. Lee's Army of Northern Virginia reinforced this determination, and that morale even in the face of defeat and the destruction of resources in 1864 1865 remained high until almost the end.

Gallagher does not slight the problems of slave defections to the Yankees, class tensions among whites, personal rivalries and jealousies among Confederate leaders, and other internal divisions that have occupied historians who see these problems as preordaining defeat. But he emphasizes the degree of white unity and strength of purpose despite these faultlines. Plenty of evidence exists to support this emphasis. A Union officer who was captured at the Battle of Atlanta on July 22, 1864, and spent the rest of the war in Southern prisons wrote in his diary on October 4 that from what he had seen in the South "the End of the War...is some time hence as the Idea of the Rebs giving up until they are completely subdued is all Moonshine they submit to privatations that would not be believed unless seen."[9]

"Until they are completely subdued." That point came in April 1865, when the large and well-equipped Union armies finally brought the starving, barefoot, and decimated ranks of Confederates to bay. Gallagher revives the overwhelming numbers and resources explanation for Confederate defeat, shorn of its false aura of inevitability. Numbers and resources do not prevail in war without the will and skill to use them. The Northern will wavered several times, most notably in response to Lee's victories in the summer of 1862 and winter spring of 1863 and the success of Lee's resistance to Grant's offensives in the spring and summer of 1864. Yet Union leaders and armies were learning the skills needed to win, and each time the Confederacy seemed on the edge of triumph, Northern victories blunted the Southern momentum: at Sharpsburg, Maryland, and Perryville, Kentucky, in the fall of 1862; at Gettysburg and Vicksburg in July 1863; and at Atlanta and in Virginia's Shenandoah Valley in September 1864. Better than any other historian of the Confederacy, Gallagher understands the importance of these contingent turning points that eventually made it possible for superior numbers and resources to prevail. He understands as well that the Confederate story cannot be written except in counterpoint with the Union story, and that because of the multiple contingencies in these stories, Northern victory was anything but inevitable.


Much of the best scholarship on the Civil War during the past decade has concentrated on the local or regional impact of the war. A fine example is Brian Steel Wills's The War Hits Home, a fascinating account of the home front and battle front in southeastern Virginia, especially the town of Suffolk and its hinterland just inland from Norfolk. No great battles took place here, but there was plenty of skirmishing and raids by combatants on both sides. Confederates controlled this region until May 1862, when they were compelled to pull back their defenses to Richmond. Union forces occupied Suffolk for the next year, staving off a halfhearted Confederate effort to recapture it in the spring of 1863. The Yankees subsequently fell back to a more defensible line nearer Norfolk, leaving the Suffolk region a sort of no man's land subject to raids and plundering by the cavalry of both armies.

Through it all most white inhabitants remained committed Confederates, while many of the slaves who were not removed by their owners to safer territory absconded to the Yankees, adding their weight to the Union side of the scales in the balance of power discussed by Freehling. White men from this region fought in several of Lee's regiments, suffering casualties that left many a household bereft of sons, husbands, fathers. Yet their Confederate loyalties scarcely wavered.

Northern occupation forces at first tried a policy of conciliation, hoping to win the Southern whites back to the Union. When this failed, they moved toward a harsher policy here as they did elsewhere, confiscating the property and liberating the slaves of people they now perceived as enemies to be crushed rather than deluded victims of secession conspirators to be converted.

Wills does not make a big point of it, but his findings stand "in sharp rebuttal" to the arguments of historians who portray a weak or divided white commitment to the Confederate cause as the reason for defeat. "These people sought to secure victory until there was no victory left to win." In the end the North did have greater numbers and resources, wielded with a skill and determination that by 1864 1865 matched the Confederacy's skills and determination; and these explain why the North won the Civil War.

Notes

[1] The Wartime Papers of R.E. Lee, edited by Clifford Dowdey and Louis H. Manarin (Little, Brown, 1961), p. 934.

[2] Quoted in Why the North Won the Civil War, edited by David Donald (Louisiana State University Press, 1960), p. ix.

[3] Richard N. Current, "God and the Strongest Battalions," in Why the North Won the Civil War, p. 22.

[4] "Men at War: An Interview with Shelby Foote," in Geoffrey C. Ward with Ric Burns and Ken Burns, The Civil War (Knopf, 1990), p. 272.

[5] London Times, August 29, 1862.

[6] Joseph E. Johnston, Narrative of Military Operations (Appleton, 1874), p. 421.

[7] Pierre G.T. Beauregard, "The First Battle of Bull Run," in Battles and Leaders of the Civil War, 4 volumes, edited by Robert U. Johnson and Clarence C. Buel (Century, 1887), Vol. 1, p. 222.

[8] Drew Gilpin Faust, "Altars of Sacrifice: Confederate Women and the Narratives of War," The Journal of American History, Vol. 76, No. 4 (March 1990), p. 1228.

[9] "The Civil War Diary of Colonel John Henry Smith," edited by David M. Smith, Iowa Journal of History, Vol. 47 (April 1949), p. 164.



TOPICS: Culture/Society
KEYWORDS: books; dixie; dixielist; jamesmcpherson; mcpherson; research; south
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To: rustbucket
Those men were sworn, uniformed soldiers serving in Union army. They deserved to be treated as POWs, not hanged for imagined crimes. What if the Union army hanged officers and men who had been serving in the United States Army at the outbreak of the war but had chosen to join the rebelllion? Would that have been justified?

In all there were about 195,000 southern men who fought for the North, about half of them white. While there were units like 1st Arkansas Cavalry and 1st Alabama Cavalry and 1st North Carolina Infantry (where the murdered POWs were from) in the Union army I don't recall coming across a 1st Ohio or a 1st New York Cavalry or a 1st Vermont Artillery in the confederate army. Maybe that's because the rebellion didn't enjoy the overwhelming popular support sothron supporters like to believe it did.

261 posted on 05/24/2002 12:46:09 PM PDT by Non-Sequitur
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To: Non-Sequitur; CajunPrince
Why did Lincoln want to retain Sumter? Partly because he said he would do so on several occasions, including his inaugural address. But in large part because that by giving into southern demands not to reinforce Sumter or, worse, ceding Sumter to the Davis regime, he would be giving them de facto recognition as a sovereign nation. And that is something he would never do.

And because he wanted a casus belli that would exonerate him, in his own and the public's eyes, of what he was about to do: solve the slavery issue his way, by bloodshed.

262 posted on 05/24/2002 1:26:24 PM PDT by lentulusgracchus
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To: lentulusgracchus
Lincoln was out to preserve the Union at almost any cost. He was even willing to support the 13th Amendment passed by Congress in 1861 if that would help preserve the Union. If anyone was looking for a casus belli at Sumter it was Jeff Davis.
263 posted on 05/24/2002 1:29:49 PM PDT by Non-Sequitur
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To: stainlessbanner
If they woulda, we'da had it made!
264 posted on 05/24/2002 1:32:15 PM PDT by Xenalyte
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To: rustbucket
In 1863, the Feds were paying 300 dollars each to poor NC farmers to enlist, a lot of money in those days.

They were paying the same to Irishmen everywhere. I blush (okay, very faintly) to admit that two of my great-great uncles, who were very fond of "potations", took the bounty money offered them in Indianapolis by the Army to "stand in" for draftees -- then absquatulated, in Mark Twain's term. The Army came looking for them, but they hid out successfully. A second cousin once removed, belonging to a branch of the family that moved South in the 1890's to participate in the then-current boomlet, has studio photos of both of these reprobates, taken when they were elderly. Their necks don't look appreciably longer than normal.

265 posted on 05/24/2002 1:37:14 PM PDT by lentulusgracchus
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To: Non-Sequitur
Maybe that's because the rebellion didn't enjoy the overwhelming popular support sothron supporters like to believe it did.

From the article at the header:

Northern occupation forces at first tried a policy of conciliation, hoping to win the Southern whites back to the Union. When this failed, they moved toward a harsher policy here as they did elsewhere, confiscating the property and liberating the slaves of people they now perceived as enemies to be crushed rather than deluded victims of secession conspirators to be converted.

Wills does not make a big point of it, but his findings stand "in sharp rebuttal" to the arguments of historians who portray a weak or divided white commitment to the Confederate cause as the reason for defeat. "These people sought to secure victory until there was no victory left to win."

Did you forget that point in the article? Or do you just disbelieve it, because polemically it is ever so much more elegant to say, "you see, even your side didn't believe in your palsied, unworthy cause"?

266 posted on 05/24/2002 1:46:36 PM PDT by lentulusgracchus
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To: Non-Sequitur
Those men were sworn, uniformed soldiers serving in Union army. They deserved to be treated as POWs, not hanged for imagined crimes.

What imagined crimes? They were guilty of desertion and high treason, of bearing arms against their sovereign States and the Confederacy. They got the same thing that John Walker Lindh deserves, and which the San Patricios got in 1847. Ben Butler would have done the same, but he and other South-hating red-hots were restrained for purely political reasons first by Lincoln, and then by Andrew Johnson and U.S. Grant. The Black Republicans made a lot of noise about hanging the Confederate commanders, but never got the office they needed to make good on their intentions.

267 posted on 05/24/2002 1:54:08 PM PDT by lentulusgracchus
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To: Non-Sequitur
Those men were sworn, uniformed soldiers serving in Union army. They deserved to be treated as POWs, not hanged for imagined crimes.

Before they were Union soldiers, they deserted from the Confederate Army. Historically, desertion in time of war was (and still is?) punishable by death, so Pickett seems to be within the rules of war here.

268 posted on 05/24/2002 1:58:43 PM PDT by rustbucket
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To: Non-Sequitur
Lincoln was out to preserve the Union at almost any cost.

Thanks for agreeing with me......and the cost he chose was war. War answered all the questions, war allowed him to do what he wanted without any backsass. War, the elixir of absolutist idealism. It makes soooo many things possible!

269 posted on 05/24/2002 1:58:59 PM PDT by lentulusgracchus
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To: Non-Sequitur
He was even willing to support the 13th Amendment passed by Congress in 1861 if that would help preserve the Union.

Which one is this? Not the historical XIIIth, surely -- do you mean the Crittenden Compromise?

270 posted on 05/24/2002 2:00:58 PM PDT by lentulusgracchus
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To: lentulusgracchus
Oh I read the article. I've also read the book by William Davis, as well as his "An Honorable Defeat: The Last Days of the Confederate Government", and in both books he makes it clear by example after example that while most of the confederate leadership and much of the population were comitted to a confederate victory, little of the leadership and not much more of the population wanted victory the way Jefferson Davis pursued it. Jefferson Davis was the very antithesis of what the confederate founding fathers supposedly believed in. Davis was a man who paid lip service to states rights and then forced edict after edict through the congress that stripped away those rights. He was a man who talked of laws and ignored his own constitution. A man who spoke of limited central govenment and then nationalized whole industries and proposed confiscatory income taxes. At the very end his own vice president wouldn't talk to him, senior senators in his government were approaching Robert E. Lee about a coup, and he had almost single-handedly, over the course of four long and bloody years, destroyed any chance the confederacy ever had of independence.
271 posted on 05/24/2002 2:04:19 PM PDT by Non-Sequitur
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To: lentulusgracchus
The 13th Amendment which passed out of Congress in March 1861 a few days before the inauguration. It protected slavery and Lincoln spoke of it's passage in his inaugural address. I believe it was ratified by one or two states.
272 posted on 05/24/2002 2:06:33 PM PDT by Non-Sequitur
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To: billbears
LOL!! Virtually all you say? Last time I checked there were 11 states, but hmmm..only 4 formal declarations of secession. That's not even a majority son. As for reason perhaps we should look to the address of the people of South Carolina in Dec 1860.

I suggest that you go back and get some facts straight.  There were 13 confederate states (N. Carolina, S. Carolina, Mississippi, Florida, Alabama, Georgia, Louisiana, Texas, Virginia, Arkansas, Tennessee, Missouri, and Kentucky).  All of them had formal declarations of secession.

And so with the Southern States, towards the Northern States, in the vital matter of taxation. They are in a minority in Congress. Their representation in Congress is useless to protect them against unjust taxation; and they are taxed by the people of the North for their benefit, exactly as the people of Great Britain taxed our ancestors in the British Parliament for their benefit. For the last forty years, the taxes laid by the Congress of the United States, have been laid with a view of subserving the interests of the North. The people of the South have been taxed by duties on imports, not for revenue, but for an object inconsistent with revenue - to promote, by prohibitions, Northern interests in the productions of their mines and manufactures.

There is another evil, in the condition of the Southern towards the Northern States, which our ancestors refused to bear towards Great Britain. Our ancestors not only taxed themselves, but all the taxes collected from them, were expended amongst them. Had they submitted to the pretensions of the British Government, the taxes collected from them would have been expended in other parts of the British Empire. They were fully aware of the effect of such a policy in impoverishing the people from whom taxes are collected, and in enriching those who receive the benefit of their expenditure. To prevent the evils of such a policy was one of the motives which drove them on to revolution. Yet this British policy has been fully realized towards the Southern States by the Northern States. The people of the Southern States are not only taxed for the benefit of the Northern States, but after the taxes are collected, three- fourths of them are expended at the North. This cause, with others, connected with the operation of the General Government, has made the cities of the South provincial. Their growth is paralyzed; they are mere suburbs of Northern cities. The agricultural productions of the South are the basis of the foreign commerce of the United States; yet Southern cities do not carry it on. Our foreign trade is almost annihilated. In 1740, there were five ship-yards in South Carolina, to build ships to carry on our direct trade with Europe. Between 1740 and 1779, there were built in these yards, twenty-five square rigged vessels, besides a great number of sloops and schooners, to carry on our coast and West India trade. In the half century immediately preceding the Revolution, from 1725 to 1775, the population of South Carolina increased seven-fold.

From reading your quote, one could be forgiven for believing that tariffs and taxation were the main reason for S. Carolina splitting from the Union.  Too bad you left off the interesting stuff which indicates that slavery was the main issue.  Also, in their formal declaration of secession, S. Carolina makes no reference either directly or indirectly to either slavery or taxation as the cause.

Now, let me give you some interesting facts.  In their official secession statements, four states (Texas, Virginia, Alabama, and Kentucky) refer to slavery either directly (Texas makes no bones about it) or indirectly that slavery was the key issue.

In their declarations of reasons why secession was necessary, Texas, Mississippi, Georgia, and South Carolina all indicate that slavery is the predominate issue.  In fact, South Carolina is the only state that I can find that mentions tariffs and taxation as a problem - and that was just a side issue with them.

I don't know if you were trying to make a point that S. Carolina had a problem with tariffs and taxation (kind of hypocritical, since they "forgot" to mention those tariffs and subsidies that protected southern agriculture) or not.  I'm going to assume that you were.  My point was not that tariffs and taxation weren't an issue.  But rather, slavery was the overriding issue - to the degree that in none of the secessionist documents actually voted on by southerners did tariffs and taxation actually appear.  In a number of them, however, slavery did appear.
273 posted on 05/24/2002 2:13:19 PM PDT by Frumious Bandersnatch
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To: Non-Sequitur
Davis was a man who paid lip service to states rights and then forced edict after edict through the congress that stripped away those rights. He was a man who talked of laws and ignored his own constitution.

Careful. Lincoln, of whose commitment to preserving the Union at any cost you just spoke so warmly, was never taxed in the extremity that Davis's fledgling government was, by blockade and invasion, and in Mexico by the French adventure. Who knows what he'd have done if the United States Government had been similarly pressed? We know he imposed a draft on the North -- with cannon. Be careful about these easy comparisons.

274 posted on 05/24/2002 2:16:02 PM PDT by lentulusgracchus
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To: billbears
Oops.  My bad.  I went and reread what I originally wrote to you about secession.  Even though I didn't say it (and it could be taken otherwise), I was originally talking about the official secessionist documents that the people of each confederate state voted upon.  My apologies for the misunderstanding.  In S. Carolina's declaration of causes, there is some mention made of tariffs, subsidies, and taxation aimed at protecting the North.  Funny though, that they forgot to mention those tariffs, subsidies, and taxation aimed at protecting the south...
275 posted on 05/24/2002 2:19:09 PM PDT by Frumious Bandersnatch
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To: Frumious Bandersnatch
But rather, slavery was the overriding issue - to the degree that in none of the secessionist documents actually voted on by southerners did tariffs and taxation actually appear.

Why is that point important to you? Speak, O Bandersnatch!

276 posted on 05/24/2002 2:21:53 PM PDT by lentulusgracchus
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To: lentulusgracchus
Simply because many are trying to prove that the South secceded over tariffs and taxation rather than slavery.  It's funny that they would say this since the confederate documentation of the time indicates the reverse.

It's a shame in a way that this revisionism is being rammed down our throats, because many who are sympathetic to southerners in their current fight with the PC world are turned off by such tactics.
277 posted on 05/24/2002 2:29:13 PM PDT by Frumious Bandersnatch
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To: Mr. Bird
I'm no Civil War scholar, but I believe they led their people to secede from the Union, not to take up arms against it.

You're right ---- you are no Civil War scholar.

278 posted on 05/24/2002 2:48:34 PM PDT by Ditto
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To: lentulusgracchus
Which one is this? Not the historical XIIIth, surely -- do you mean the Crittenden Compromise?

No. The Crittedon Compromise was over expansion of slavery to the West which Lincoln refused to compromise on. The amendment of 1861 would have guranteed to protect slavery in the 15 states where it then existed by making it 'unconstitutional' to end slavery. Lincoln said he would support it. It was silent on Westward expansion. The amendment was a despiration move by 'moderates' in congress to bring the southern states back and avoid war. The southern states all rejected it saying that slavery was already protected and that expansion was what really mattered to them. The reality is that slavery itself was not the cause of the war. Expansion of slavery was the cause. Lincoln and the South both understood the same economics. Without expansion, the slave economy would have imploded on itself as the slave population doubled every generation. Lincoln saw 'containment' as the way to end slavery, while the south saw expansion as absolutluy necessary to keep their institutions alive.

279 posted on 05/24/2002 3:00:25 PM PDT by Ditto
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To: Non-Sequitur
At the very end his own vice president wouldn't talk to him, senior senators in his government were approaching Robert E. Lee about a coup, and he had almost single-handedly, over the course of four long and bloody years, destroyed any chance the confederacy ever had of independence.

The point that Jefferson Davis had drawbacks as a strategic thinker and as an executive hasn't been denied very often, I think; but does saying so support your point that, since Davis was hotter on prolonging the war than most people, including Bobby Lee, does that mean that people were as tepid as you assert in the face of evidence to the contrary just cited? It certainly wasn't the case with the Army of Northern Virginia, the men most likely to suffer direly in any prolongation of hostilities beyond April 9th. Your constant disparagement of Southern resolution in their cause, as if it were slight and febrile, is a skinflinty vein to mine. Better leave it alone. Like looting or stealing candy from children, you can't look good doing it, and you won't get much for your trouble.

280 posted on 05/24/2002 3:10:02 PM PDT by lentulusgracchus
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