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Could the South Have Won?
NY Books ^ | June 2002 ed. | James M. McPherson

Posted on 05/23/2002 8:52:25 AM PDT by stainlessbanner


The New York Review of Books
June 13, 2002

Review

Could the South Have Won?

By James M. McPherson

Look Away! A History of the Confederate States of America

by William C. Davis

The South vs. the South: How Anti-Confederate Southerners Shaped the Course of the Civil War

by William W. Freehling

Lee and His Army in Confederate History

by Gary W. Gallagher

The War Hits Home: The Civil War in Southeastern Virginia
by Brian Steel Wills

The field of Civil War history has produced more interpretative disputes than most historical events. Next to debates about the causes of the war, arguments about why the North won, or why the Confederacy lost (the difference in phraseology is significant), have generated some of the most heated but also most enlightening recent scholarship. The titles of four books reveal just some of the central themes of this argument: Why the North Won the Civil War (1960); How the North Won (1983); Why the South Lost the Civil War (1986); Why the Confederacy Lost (1992).

Answers to these why and how questions fall into two general categories: external and internal. Exter-nal interpretations usually phrase the question as Why did the North win? They focus on a comparison of Northern and Southern population, resources, economic capacity, leadership, or strategy, and conclude that Northern superiority in one or more of these explains Union victory. Internal explanations tend to ask, Why did the South lose? They focus mainly or entirely on the Confederacy and argue that internal divisions, dissensions, or inadequacies account for Confederate defeat.

The most durable interpretation is an external one. It was offered by General Robert E. Lee himself in a farewell address to his army after its surrender at Appomattox: "The Army of Northern Virginia has been compelled to yield to overwhelming numbers and resources."[1] This explanation enabled Southern whites to preserve their pride, to reconcile defeat with their sense of honor, even to maintain faith in the nobility of their cause while admitting that it had been lost. The Confederacy, in other words, was compelled to surrender not because its soldiers fought badly, or lacked courage, or suffered from poor leadership, or because its cause was wrong, but simply because the enemy had more men and guns. The South did not lose; Confederates wore themselves out whipping the Yankees and collapsed from glorious exhaustion. This interpretation became the mainstay of what has been called the Myth of the Lost Cause, which has sustained Southern pride in their Confederate forebears to this day. As one Virginian expressed it:

They never whipped us, Sir, unless they were four to one. If we had had anything like a fair chance, or less disparity of numbers, we should have won our cause and established our independence.[2]

In one form or another, this explanation has won support from scholars of Northern as well as Southern birth. In 1960 the historian Richard Current provided a succinct version of it. After reviewing the statistics of the North's "overwhelming numbers and resources" two and a half times the South's population, three times its railroad capacity, nine times its industrial production, and so on Current concluded that "surely, in view of the disparity of resources, it would have taken a miracle...to enable the South to win. As usual, God was on the side of the heaviest battalions."[3]

In 1990 Shelby Foote expressed this thesis in his inimitable fashion. Noting that many aspects of life in the North went on much as usual during the Civil War, Foote told Ken Burns on camera in the PBS documentary The Civil War that "the North fought that war with one hand behind its back." If necessary "the North simply would have brought that other arm out from behind its back. I don't think the South ever had a chance to win that war."[4]


At first glance, Current's and Foote's statements seem plausible. But upon reflection, a good many historians have questioned their explicit assertions that overwhelming numbers and resources made Northern victory inevitable. If that is true, the Confederate leaders who took their people to war in 1861 were guilty of criminal folly or colossal arrogance. They had read the census returns. They knew as much about the North's superiority in men, resources, and economic capacity as any modern historian. Yet they went to war confident of victory. Southern leaders were students of history. They could cite many examples of small nations that won or defended their independence against much more powerful enemies: Switzerland against the Hapsburg Empire; the Netherlands against Spain; Greece against the Ottomans. Their own ancestors had won independence from mighty Britain in 1783. The relative resources of the Confederacy vis-à-vis the Union in 1861 were greater than those of these other successful rebels.

The Confederacy waged a strategically defensive war to protect from conquest territory it already controlled and to preserve its armies from annihilation. To "win" that kind of war, the Confederacy did not need to invade and conquer the North or destroy its army and infrastructure; it needed only to hold out long enough to compel the North to the conclusion that the price of conquering the South and annihilating its armies was too great, as Britain had concluded with respect to the United States in 1781 or, for that matter, as the United States concluded with respect to Vietnam in 1972. Until 1865, cold-eyed military experts in Europe were almost unanimous in their conviction that Union armies could never conquer and subdue the 750,000 square miles of the Confederacy, as large as all of Western Europe. "No war of independence ever terminated unsuccessfully except where the disparity of force was far greater than it is in this case," pronounced the military analyst of the London Times in 1862. "Just as England during the revolution had to give up conquering the colonies so the North will have to give up conquering the South."[5]

Even after losing the war, many ex-Confederates stuck to this belief. General Joseph E. Johnston, one of the highest-ranking Confederate officers, insisted in 1874 that the Southern people had not been "guilty of the high crime of undertaking a war without the means of waging it successfully."[6] A decade later General Pierre G.T. Beauregard, who ranked just below Johnston, made the same point: "No people ever warred for independence with more relative advantages than the Confederates."[7]


If so, why did they lose the war? In thinly veiled terms, Johnston and Beauregard blamed the inept leadership of Jefferson Davis. That harried gentleman responded in kind; as far as he was concerned, the erratic and inadequate generalship of Beauregard and especially Johnston was responsible for Confederate defeat. In the eyes of many contemporaries and historians there was plenty of blame to go around. William C. Davis's Look Away! is the most recent "internal" study of the Confederacy that, by implication at least, attributes Confederate defeat to poor leadership at several levels, both military and civilian, as well as factionalism, dissension, and bickering between men with outsize egos and thin skins. In this version of Confederate history, only Robert E. Lee and Stonewall Jackson remain unstained.

For any believer in the Myth of the Lost Cause, any admirer of heroic Confederate resistance to overwhelming odds, the story told by Davis (no relation to the Confederate president) makes depressing reading. It is a story of conflicts not on the battlefields of Manassas or Shiloh or Gettysburg or Chickamauga or the Wilderness they are here, but offstage, as it were but conflicts between state governors and the Confederate government in Richmond, between quarreling Cabinet officers, between Jefferson Davis and prominent generals or senators or newspaper editors and even his vice-president, Alexander Stephens. Davis chronicles different examples of internal breakdown under the stresses not only of enemy invasion but also of slave defections to the Yankees, of Unionist disloyalty in the upcountry, particularly in such states as Tennessee, of galloping inflation and the inability of an unbalanced agricultural society under siege to control it, of shortages and hunger and a growing bitterness and alienation among large elements of the population.

These problems seemed more than sufficient to ensure Confederate failure, but they were greatly exacerbated by the jealousies and rivalries of Confederate politicians, which remain Davis's principal focus. He does not explicitly address the question of why the Confederacy lost, but his implicit answer lies in the assertion that "the fundamental flaw in too many of the big men of the Confederacy... [was] 'big-man-me-ism.'"

There are, however, two problems with this interpretation. In two senses it is too "internal." First, by concentrating only on the Confederacy it tends to leave the reader with the impression that only the Confederacy suffered from these corrosive rivalries, jealousies, and dissensions. But a history of the North during the Civil War would reveal similar problems, mitigated only by Lincoln's skill in holding together a diverse coalition of Republicans and War Democrats, Yankees and border states, abolitionists and slaveholders which perhaps suggests that Lincoln was the principal reason for Union victory. In any event, Look Away! is also too "internal" because the author is too deeply dependent on his sources. It is the nature of newspaper editorials, private correspondence, congressional debates, partisan speeches, and the like to emphasize conflict, criticism, argument, complaint. It is the squeaky wheel that squeaks. The historian needs to step back and gain some perspective on these sources, to recognize that the well-greased wheel that turns smoothly also turns quietly, leaving less evidence of its existence available to the historian.

Look Away! falls within one tradition of internal explanations for Confederate defeat. More prevalent, especially in recent years, have been studies that emphasize divisions and conflicts of race, class, and even gender in the South. Two fifths of the Confederate population were slaves, and two thirds of the whites did not belong to slaveholding families. What stake did they have in an independent Confederate nation whose original raison d'être was the protection of slavery? Not much stake at all, according to many historians, especially for the slaves and, as the war took an increasing toll on non-slaveholding white families, very little stake for them either. Even among slaveholding families, the women who willingly subscribed to an ethic of sacrifice in the war's early years became disillusioned as the lengthening war robbed them of husbands, sons, lovers, and brothers. Many white women turned against the war and spread this disaffection among their menfolk in the army; in the end, according to Drew Gilpin Faust, "it may well have been because of its women that the South lost the Civil War."[8]


If all this is true if the slaves and some nonslaveholding whites opposed the Confederate war effort from the outset and others including women of slaveholding families eventually turned against it, one need look no further to explain Confederate defeat. In The South vs. the South, however, William W. Freehling does not go this far. He says almost nothing about women as a separate category, and he acknowledges that many nonslaveholding whites had a racial, cultural, and even economic stake in the preservation of slavery and remained loyal Confederates to the end. But he maintains that, properly defined, half of all Southerners opposed the Confederacy and that this fact provides a sufficient explanation for Confederate failure.

Freehling defines the South as all fifteen slave states and Southerners as all people slave as well as free who lived in those states. This distinction between "the South" and the eleven slave states that formed the Confederacy is important but too often disregarded by those who casually conflate the South and the Confederacy. Admittedly, some 90,000 white men from the four Union slave states (Kentucky, Missouri, Maryland, and Delaware) fought for the Confederacy, but this number was offset by a similar number of whites from Confederate states (chiefly Tennessee and the part of Virginia that became West Virginia) who fought for the Union.

But Freehling's central thesis that "white Confederates were only half the Southerners" raises problems. This arithmetic works only if virtually all black Southerners are counted against the Confederacy. At times Freehling seems to argue that they should be so counted. At other times he is more cautious, maintaining that "the vast majority" of Southern blacks "either opposed the rebel cause or cared not whether it lived or died." Freehling does not make clear how important he considers that qualifying "or cared not." In any event, let us assume that all three million slaves who remained in the Confederacy (as well as the one million in the border states and in conquered Confederate regions) sympathized with the Union cause that would bring them freedom. Nevertheless, their unwilling labor as slaves was crucial to the Confederate economy and war effort, just as their unwilling labor and that of their forebears had been crucial to building the antebellum Southern economy. These Confederate slaves worked less efficiently than before the war because so many masters and overseers were absent at the front. Unwilling or not, however, they must be counted on the Confederate side of the equation, which significantly alters Freehling's 50/50 split of pro- and anti-Confederates in the South to something like 75/25.

Freehling draws on previous scholarship to offer a succinct narrative of the political and military course of the war, organized around Lincoln's slow but inexorable steps toward emancipation, "hard war," and the eventual mobilization of 300,000 black laborers and soldiers to work and fight for the Union. This narrative is marred by several errors, including the repeated confusion of General Charles F. Smith with General William F. "Baldy" Smith, the conflation of combat casualties with combat mortality, the mislabeling of a photograph of Confederate trenches at Fredericksburg as Petersburg, and the acceptance at face value of Alexander Stephens's absurd claim, made five years after Lincoln's death, that the Union president had urged him in 1865 to persuade Southern states to ratify the Thirteenth Amendment "prospectively," thereby delaying the abolition of slavery five years. Nevertheless, Freehling has made a strong case for the vital contribution of the two million whites and one million blacks in the South who definitely did support the Union cause. Without them, "the North" could not have prevailed, as Lincoln readily acknowledged.


Freehling does not take a clear stand on the question of whether Union victory was inevitable. At times he seems to imply that it was, because the half of all Southerners whom he claims supported the Union (actively or passively) doomed the Confederacy. But at other times he suggests that this support was contingent on the outcome of military campaigns and political decisions. No such ambiguity characterizes the essays in Gary Gallagher's Lee and His Army in Confederate History. In this book and in his earlier The Confederate War, Gallagher has argued forcefully and convincingly that Confederate nationalism bound most Southern whites together in determined support for the Confederate cause, that the brilliant though costly victories of Robert E. Lee's Army of Northern Virginia reinforced this determination, and that morale even in the face of defeat and the destruction of resources in 1864 1865 remained high until almost the end.

Gallagher does not slight the problems of slave defections to the Yankees, class tensions among whites, personal rivalries and jealousies among Confederate leaders, and other internal divisions that have occupied historians who see these problems as preordaining defeat. But he emphasizes the degree of white unity and strength of purpose despite these faultlines. Plenty of evidence exists to support this emphasis. A Union officer who was captured at the Battle of Atlanta on July 22, 1864, and spent the rest of the war in Southern prisons wrote in his diary on October 4 that from what he had seen in the South "the End of the War...is some time hence as the Idea of the Rebs giving up until they are completely subdued is all Moonshine they submit to privatations that would not be believed unless seen."[9]

"Until they are completely subdued." That point came in April 1865, when the large and well-equipped Union armies finally brought the starving, barefoot, and decimated ranks of Confederates to bay. Gallagher revives the overwhelming numbers and resources explanation for Confederate defeat, shorn of its false aura of inevitability. Numbers and resources do not prevail in war without the will and skill to use them. The Northern will wavered several times, most notably in response to Lee's victories in the summer of 1862 and winter spring of 1863 and the success of Lee's resistance to Grant's offensives in the spring and summer of 1864. Yet Union leaders and armies were learning the skills needed to win, and each time the Confederacy seemed on the edge of triumph, Northern victories blunted the Southern momentum: at Sharpsburg, Maryland, and Perryville, Kentucky, in the fall of 1862; at Gettysburg and Vicksburg in July 1863; and at Atlanta and in Virginia's Shenandoah Valley in September 1864. Better than any other historian of the Confederacy, Gallagher understands the importance of these contingent turning points that eventually made it possible for superior numbers and resources to prevail. He understands as well that the Confederate story cannot be written except in counterpoint with the Union story, and that because of the multiple contingencies in these stories, Northern victory was anything but inevitable.


Much of the best scholarship on the Civil War during the past decade has concentrated on the local or regional impact of the war. A fine example is Brian Steel Wills's The War Hits Home, a fascinating account of the home front and battle front in southeastern Virginia, especially the town of Suffolk and its hinterland just inland from Norfolk. No great battles took place here, but there was plenty of skirmishing and raids by combatants on both sides. Confederates controlled this region until May 1862, when they were compelled to pull back their defenses to Richmond. Union forces occupied Suffolk for the next year, staving off a halfhearted Confederate effort to recapture it in the spring of 1863. The Yankees subsequently fell back to a more defensible line nearer Norfolk, leaving the Suffolk region a sort of no man's land subject to raids and plundering by the cavalry of both armies.

Through it all most white inhabitants remained committed Confederates, while many of the slaves who were not removed by their owners to safer territory absconded to the Yankees, adding their weight to the Union side of the scales in the balance of power discussed by Freehling. White men from this region fought in several of Lee's regiments, suffering casualties that left many a household bereft of sons, husbands, fathers. Yet their Confederate loyalties scarcely wavered.

Northern occupation forces at first tried a policy of conciliation, hoping to win the Southern whites back to the Union. When this failed, they moved toward a harsher policy here as they did elsewhere, confiscating the property and liberating the slaves of people they now perceived as enemies to be crushed rather than deluded victims of secession conspirators to be converted.

Wills does not make a big point of it, but his findings stand "in sharp rebuttal" to the arguments of historians who portray a weak or divided white commitment to the Confederate cause as the reason for defeat. "These people sought to secure victory until there was no victory left to win." In the end the North did have greater numbers and resources, wielded with a skill and determination that by 1864 1865 matched the Confederacy's skills and determination; and these explain why the North won the Civil War.

Notes

[1] The Wartime Papers of R.E. Lee, edited by Clifford Dowdey and Louis H. Manarin (Little, Brown, 1961), p. 934.

[2] Quoted in Why the North Won the Civil War, edited by David Donald (Louisiana State University Press, 1960), p. ix.

[3] Richard N. Current, "God and the Strongest Battalions," in Why the North Won the Civil War, p. 22.

[4] "Men at War: An Interview with Shelby Foote," in Geoffrey C. Ward with Ric Burns and Ken Burns, The Civil War (Knopf, 1990), p. 272.

[5] London Times, August 29, 1862.

[6] Joseph E. Johnston, Narrative of Military Operations (Appleton, 1874), p. 421.

[7] Pierre G.T. Beauregard, "The First Battle of Bull Run," in Battles and Leaders of the Civil War, 4 volumes, edited by Robert U. Johnson and Clarence C. Buel (Century, 1887), Vol. 1, p. 222.

[8] Drew Gilpin Faust, "Altars of Sacrifice: Confederate Women and the Narratives of War," The Journal of American History, Vol. 76, No. 4 (March 1990), p. 1228.

[9] "The Civil War Diary of Colonel John Henry Smith," edited by David M. Smith, Iowa Journal of History, Vol. 47 (April 1949), p. 164.



TOPICS: Culture/Society
KEYWORDS: books; dixie; dixielist; jamesmcpherson; mcpherson; research; south
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To: CajunPrince
Well in Spanish it would be Besa Mi Culo more or less. In Portugese it would be Beja Meo Curo.....both I speak fairly well. Kiss my arse or more technically....kiss the geographic center and exit orifice of my rear end....is it that literal as well in 18th century French?
221 posted on 05/23/2002 9:55:39 PM PDT by wardaddy
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To: weikel
I agree....it's late...this dumb racist hick is going to bed...LOL
222 posted on 05/23/2002 9:56:39 PM PDT by wardaddy
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To: Cleburne
You are incredibly wise and astute for your years. Bragg was indeed one piss poor military leader. One wonders if the Tennessee theater might not have fared better (from our viewpoint) had Albert Sydney Johnston not been killed at the Peach Orchard at the battle of Shiloh Church. A.S. might very well have survived his wound had he noticed it and called for an available surgeon early enough before he collapsed from his horse.

A little synopsis of his death from www.swcivilwar.com:

There was also hard fighting in a peach orchard and Johnston himself led the final charge that drove the Union defenders out of it. Shortly afterward he was hit in the leg by a Yankee bullet which severed his femoral artery. Having sent his surgeon to tend to group of wounded Federal prisoners, he bled to death for lack of appropriate medical attention

It's comforting to see young folks with as keen a sense of history as yours are still around.

223 posted on 05/23/2002 10:06:30 PM PDT by wardaddy
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To: WhiskeyPapa
Yet, in the midst of this critical food shortage, that same month, Mary Boykin Chesnut attended a party given by Varina Davis for the elite ladies of Richmond society in which the table fare was described as "gumbo, ducks and olives, supreme de volaille, chickens in jelly, oysters, lettuce salad, chocolate jelly cake, claret soup, champagne, &c&c&c." (31 January 1864 diary entry in Woodward's MARY CHESNUT'S CIVIL WAR). Several of those menu items were imported luxury items. Why didn't Lee take direct action in such circumstances?

Are you suggesting that Gen. Lee should have ordered his troops to storm the Confederate White House in Richmond and snatch food from the table of his president?

Is that what happened during the first revolution?

You are obviously learned, but also obviously totally ignorant of Southern culture. The fact that Southern leaders fought with honor is why their "cause" is preserved in the hearts of their descendants.

It's a Southern thing and some folks may never understand.

224 posted on 05/23/2002 10:30:43 PM PDT by varina davis
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To: WhiskeyPapa
3-400 Union soldiers were murdered in cold blood at Fort Pillow.

You forget that soldiers die in battle -- Fort Pillow was a battle that the Federals lost big time. Claiming that that many Union soldiers were murdered in cold blood does not match what happened though I have no doubt that some, perhaps many, were killed as they tried to surrender.

Shortly before this battle, Negro troops reportedly fired on surrendering Confederate troops in Virginia. This incident was published (in the South anyway) in The Daily Picayune newspaper of New Orleans on February 9, 1864. They published a January 1864 letter of complaint about it to US Gen. Wilde, Commanding Colored Brigade, Headquarters Forces on Blackwater, Franklin, VA from CSA Colonel Joel R. Griffin. Perhaps this was one of the reasons Negro troops suffered so heavily at Fort Pillow. Negro troops were also reported to have been firing during the truce at Fort Pillow.

The Picayune reported the words of a Union captain captured at Fort Pillow: "Capt. Young, Provost Marshall, was taken prisoner, slightly wounded, and paroled the liberty of their camps, and allowed to see his wife. He says that our troops [the Federals] behaved gallantly throughout the whole action, that our loss [Federals again] in killed will exceed 200; he also stated that Gen. Forrest shot one of his own men for refusing quarters to our men."

New Orleans was run by the Federal Army at this point in time and so the Picayune would have been subject to their control. The Picayune is a good source of information compiled from other newpapers and sources from both North and South. The Picayune clearly labeled the sources of their information. In this case, Capt. Young's words were reported in the Memphis Argus. Memphis was also in Federal hands.

225 posted on 05/23/2002 10:42:57 PM PDT by rustbucket
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To: CajunPrince
I have no questions that verse could answer. And certainly would not ask you if I did.
226 posted on 05/23/2002 11:00:59 PM PDT by justshutupandtakeit
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To: CajunPrince
I would say that it is your knowledge of history that is suspect, or probably just convenient. Those men were members of Company F, Second North Carolina Union Volunteer Infantry. They were in uniform and were POWs, not deserters, but Pickett hanged them anyway. They were serving with the Union Army in North Carolina, were captured in uniform, and should have been properly treated. But instead Pickett hanged them anyway. But what should we have expected from an army that shot black POWs out of hand as a matter of course; whose government's official policy was to sell black Union POWs into slavery and imprison their officers.

Anyway, you were also talking about conscription. Read William Davis' book "Look Away: A History of the Confederate States of America" for an idea of consctiption in the south. Even though 30% of the confederate army was drafted, and an even larger percentage were men forced to serve because their enlistments had been extended, Davis points out that opposition to the draft in the south did not come from mob rule, like the New York riots, but was organized by the very southern governors and legislatures that were supposed to be supporting the noble cause. Pickett hanged men in North Carolina. Did you ever wonder why? It's because it was North Carolina. North Carolina had a double distinction in the rebel army: it provided more soldiers than any other state in the confederacy, and it had more deserters from the army than any other state in the confederacy. Although North Carolinian disloyalty to the Confederacy was probably not much worse than in some other Southern states, it was publicly more pronounced. Governor Zebulon Vance, who led the state through most of the war, was an outspoken critic of the Davis administration. And the North Carolina Standard, one of the state's leading newspapers, was so well known for its opposition to the Confederate war effort that North Carolina soldiers came to blame it for the growing number of desertions. Even the North Carolina Supreme Court gave aid and comfort to those desiring to avoid Confederate military service. Chief Justice Richmond M. Person was known to secure the release of virtually any conscript, deserter, or person accused of disloyalty who applied to him. Since desertion was not a crime in the state, citizens who shielded deserters felt safe from arrest for hiding them. Added to the problem, war-weary soldiers received volumes of letters from wives and family members urging them to come home--arguing that they "could desert with impunity." It was even said that they could "band together and defy the officers of the law" who came after them. As a result, large numbers were concealed from the army in many parts of the state.

So you point to New York, and if you bothered reading anything you would have found out that New York wasn't the only draft riot, and crow about how there was nothing like it in the south. Why should there be? The southern man didn't have to riot to get out of being drafted. He had his state courts and government actively working against the confederate government and they would make sure he didn't have to serve.

227 posted on 05/24/2002 4:17:02 AM PDT by Non-Sequitur
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To: stainlessbanner
BTW: I check my local used-book stores for many titles - a great source of low-priced reads for your library.

Amazon.com has a service now where they act as a broker for people selling used copies of books. If you pull up the page for a book you are interested in there is usually a link to people who have the same book for sale used. It's saved me a lot of money in the past and it's easier than scouring used book stores.

228 posted on 05/24/2002 4:21:59 AM PDT by Non-Sequitur
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To: Diogenes of Sinope

NO SIR! And if you knew anything about the framing of the United States Constitution, you would know that the Federalists didn't win that argument. The 10th Amendment specifically limited the powers of the Federal government. You know ... enumerated powers? Limited Central Government? The States were independent entities and by concensus and ratification joined the Union of States forming the United States. The right of seccession was considered an inherent God - given right. Look at the constitution of the State of Virginia.

229 posted on 05/24/2002 5:48:39 AM PDT by Colt .45
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To: rustbucket
3-400 Union soldiers were murdered in cold blood at Fort Pillow.

You forget that soldiers die in battle -- Fort Pillow was a battle that the Federals lost big time.

You and I had a refreshingly civil exchange on this Fort Pillow thing on another thread. The reason I cite "3-400" is because of the evidence you introduced. The one website that I found cited contemporary sources as saying 400 Union men were murdered after they had surrendered.

If it were 200, 300 or 400, there is no parallel to that sort of treatment of CSA POW's by the Union.

Walt

230 posted on 05/24/2002 5:51:47 AM PDT by WhiskeyPapa
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To: varina davis
You are obviously learned, but also obviously totally ignorant of Southern culture.

Well, I don't have a commie flag tacked up on the wall of my garage, as the song has it.

I've been getting southern culture through my skin for about 46 years now. I thought Nashville was too far north.

Walt

231 posted on 05/24/2002 5:54:27 AM PDT by WhiskeyPapa
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To: muleboy
First of all I have to correct you on one thing. When you refer to the southern population as 9 milion you overlook the fact that 3.5 million of those were slaves who had zero say in what the south did and when they did it.

Regardless, what does it say for the 5.6 million that they let themselves be led into war by a hack politician? A man who, once appointed into power, spent the next four years trampling all over everything that the southerners said that they were fighting for. Except, of course, for the institution of slavery. Everyting else - states rights, limited central government, low taxes, constitutional protection - Davis dumped all over. What does that say about them?

232 posted on 05/24/2002 6:05:40 AM PDT by Non-Sequitur
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To: rustbucket
Forty loyal Texans were hanged in Gainesville, Texas during October 1862, simply for being loyal to the U.S. With the exception of some who were hanged by a lynch mob, they were tried by a civilian court (an impromptu civilian court on the frontier) organized by Confederate army officers. The Confederate Articles of War includes the following:

”Art. 57. Whosoever shall be convicted of holding correspondence with, or giving intelligence to the enemy, either directly or indirectly, shall suffer death or such other punishment as shall be ordered by the sentence of a court-martial.”

Yeah, fourteen were lynched.

As I recall from our exchange on an earlier thread, the first seven condemned were all non-slave holders. That seems how it broke down. The victims were non-slave holders and the executioners were slave holders.

The book I have on this was written by one of the descendants of one of the murdered men. So that probably colors his take on it some. But he said there was nothing more than some general talk of aiding US forces if they approached the area.

I'd be a little leery of citing CSA "law" if I were you. Everything the Germans did to the Jews was strictly legal under German law.

I'd also point out that there were a number of arrests of secessionists in Maryland. Telegragh lines were cut, bridges burned, and U.S. troops fired on. In one instance four U.S. soldiers were killed.

And yet every single person arrested by the federal government for these actions was released unharmed.

So please don't try and suggest that the traitors out in Texas were justified in hanging these men, whose only crime was loyalty to Old Glory.

One thing about this whole ACW rant on FR and elsewhere is this tit for tat thing.

"Yes, CSA troops rampaged and murdered, but they were provoked by Union actions", we hear.

The only problem with this, even if it were true, which it's not, is that no one is putting forth a cult for the Union men of the day. We are told that the secessionists were honorable, christian men and all that, worthy of our respect and veneration.

You'd think that would give them less excuse for bloody murder-- seems like they should be held to a more strict standard, them being the basis of a cult and all, but their murderous actions, to say nothing of the theft of federal property, the legislation passed directing that lawful debts owed to northern PRIVATE creditors be paid to the treasury of the so-called CSA and all that doesn't faze some of their defenders.

In fact, these dishonorable actions don't seem to faze ANY of their defenders.

Walt

233 posted on 05/24/2002 6:11:43 AM PDT by WhiskeyPapa
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To: GOPcapitalist
Miller was under arms, a legitimate POW.

...but innocent of any wrongdoing. Sherman had him executed in cold blood.

Before these executions, Sherman's men were subjected to bushwhacking and ambush by non-combatants. It was made very plain to authorities of the so-called CSA that if these actions outside the laws of war were not stopped, that reprisal executions would take place. More ambushes and bushwahcking followed. A few CSA POW's chosen by lot (or maybe just this one) were executed.

The bushwhacking stopped.

This was something done throughout the war.

There was a thread a few weeks ago venerating some CSA captain executed by federal forces.

Well, turns out he was executed for the cold blooded murder of 53 Union POW's at Saltville, VA. That puts a slightly different tinge on it, don't you think?

Many of those Union POW's were black.

Threatening, or executing, CSA prisoners in order to extort better treatment of US prisoners was a constant in 1863-65.

That is something the CSA cult mongers gloss over.

Walt

234 posted on 05/24/2002 6:23:52 AM PDT by WhiskeyPapa
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To: wardaddy
If it was so widely held that the CSA would prevail Walt, why did none of the European powers formally recognize them?

I think you answer your own question, and don't even realize it.

You would set up the republic of Wardaddy. I don't think the consular services of the various foreign nations would be sending you ambassadors. You could add an extra cup of water in the soup, if they all wanted to come for dinner.

I guess if you pinned some of the fire eaters down, they would have said something like, "oh yes, the yankees have the potential to produce 5,000 rifles a DAY (which they did) and we only have the capability to produce 100 a day (which also happened), but the yankees won't fight."

Well, that's just what the Japs thought -- the Yankees won't fight.

Of course even under the worst of Sherman's depredations, few were more than dispossessed of their homes, belongings or food.

In the one Tokyo firebombing in March, 1945, masses of Japanese civilians rushed to and fro trying to escape the raging firestorms created by U.S. bombers. Over 70,000 were incinerated or suffocated in just that one night.

Walt

235 posted on 05/24/2002 6:40:31 AM PDT by WhiskeyPapa
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To: CajunPrince
That demand for "one civilian name" is getting old. It seems you cannot come up with anything new, why is that?

I'll keep running this up the flag pole, so to speak, as long as it keeps being said that Sherman's men raped and pillaged their way across the south. That didn't happen. So far as I know, not a single civilian was executed by Sherman's men or on his orders.

But "one civilian name" you say. Here are the names of the forty loyal Texans hanged by CSA authorities (or lynched while CSA authorities looked on):

Nathaniel Clark, Wernell, Richard Martin, Grandpaw Burch, H.J. Esmond, Ward, Evans, Clem Woods, Wolsey, Manon, Leffel, A. B. McNeice, Wash Moirris, Wesley Morris, Thomas Floyd (shot), John Crisp, James Powers, Rama Dye, J. Dawson, Wiley, K. Morris, Barnes, Milburn, W. Anderson, Gross, Ward,, Dr. Johnson, Childs, Senir, Childs, Junior, Hampton, Locke, Foster, Fields, D. Anderson, D. Taylor, R. Manton, Jones, carmichael, Henry Cochran.

--from "The Civil War Recolections of Lemuel Clark"

It sure is funny that a bunch of cold blooded murderers could be the subject of a cult of veneration.

Walt

236 posted on 05/24/2002 6:51:18 AM PDT by WhiskeyPapa
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To: WhiskeyPapa
When are you going to get it through your head, Walt, that when the Yankees did it then it was an atrocity. When the confederates did it then it was all part of the noble struggle for sothron independence and states rights.
237 posted on 05/24/2002 7:00:43 AM PDT by Non-Sequitur
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To: Non-Sequitur
When are you going to get it through your head, Walt, that when the Yankees did it then it was an atrocity. When the confederates did it then it was all part of the noble struggle for sothron independence and states rights.

When I get the common sense part of my brain lobotomized.

Walt

238 posted on 05/24/2002 7:06:33 AM PDT by WhiskeyPapa
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To: Non-Sequitur
What does that say about them?

I believe it says that Southerners were far less astute in choosing a CIC for an unexpectedly long and costly war. Southerners were far more resistant to the concept of "the ends justify the means" than their Northern counterparts.

As flawed as Davis was, however, his vision of a post-war governing system was far superior to Lincoln's.

239 posted on 05/24/2002 7:11:32 AM PDT by muleboy
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To: muleboy
I believe it says that Southerners were far less astute in choosing a CIC for an unexpectedly long and costly war.

Ever see those resume writing services?

Anyone who considers the resumes of Davis and Lincoln sure would look askance at resumes generally.

Davis was a graduate of West Point, serving officer in the Mexican War, secretary of war, and senator.

Lincoln ran a two person law firm and served one term in the Congress.

Lincoln, I believe once said he picked Herndon as law partner because he was better organized! And Herndon was a heavy drinker. That was bound to help his organization skills.

But who did the masterful job as CIC and who was bitterly criticized when a war that was completely winnable was lost?

Walt

240 posted on 05/24/2002 7:17:43 AM PDT by WhiskeyPapa
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