Posted on 05/23/2002 8:52:25 AM PDT by stainlessbanner
England wasn't interested!
That Braveheart--mel gibson movie reminded me of "attica".
This war--debate goes on and on...needlessly!
I believe 100% in state rights and the National Government---constitution!
Cultural wars and prison riots are another thing!
I think it's safe to say there were marauders on both sides. The fact that the North was the invader/occupier opens them up to this charge more often strictly by that fact as much as anything. Aside from the border states where this stuff was commonplace, I believe there is evidence that most field commanders dealt harshly with such offenses. Sherman's march and his total war in my homestate of Mississippi probably pushed the envelope more than most. His desire was to break the will of the Southerners....whether he did or not is something we can all debate forever.
No invasion was necessary. The Japanese were ready to surrender, all that was required was that they be offered halfway decent terms. And they were after Hiroshima and Nagasaki was used to demonstrate the atomic bomb to the Russians.
Necessary or not, the invasion was scheduled and would have occurred.
As for "terms," the "unconditional surrender" formula had its roots in the idea that our WWII enemies had to be unambiguously defeated on the battlefield. (WWI being taken as an example of what happens if you don't do that.)
It's the same revisionist pap that's been going around for decades. You can hindsight it all you want, but Truman's decision was based on the casualties at Okinawa, and the certainty that they'd be far worse in the Japan campaign.
No, I think that's been settled pretty well. If the Southern will hadn't been broken, we'd have seen evidence to that effect. To my knowledge there were no Reconstruction-era insurrections (at least, none of any significance) by Southerners, and the secessionist states did eventually come rather meekly back into the Union.
On the contrary, the lesson that should have been learned from WWI was the effect of punitive terms like those proposed by Roosevelt, who didn't learn from history, which probably had the effect of prolonging the war on both fronts.
LOL!! Virtually all you say? Last time I checked there were 11 states, but hmmm..only 4 formal declarations of secession. That's not even a majority son. As for reason perhaps we should look to the address of the people of South Carolina in Dec 1860.
And so with the Southern States, towards the Northern States, in the vital matter of taxation. They are in a minority in Congress. Their representation in Congress is useless to protect them against unjust taxation; and they are taxed by the people of the North for their benefit, exactly as the people of Great Britain taxed our ancestors in the British Parliament for their benefit. For the last forty years, the taxes laid by the Congress of the United States, have been laid with a view of subserving the interests of the North. The people of the South have been taxed by duties on imports, not for revenue, but for an object inconsistent with revenue - to promote, by prohibitions, Northern interests in the productions of their mines and manufactures.
There is another evil, in the condition of the Southern towards the Northern States, which our ancestors refused to bear towards Great Britain. Our ancestors not only taxed themselves, but all the taxes collected from them, were expended amongst them. Had they submitted to the pretensions of the British Government, the taxes collected from them would have been expended in other parts of the British Empire. They were fully aware of the effect of such a policy in impoverishing the people from whom taxes are collected, and in enriching those who receive the benefit of their expenditure. To prevent the evils of such a policy was one of the motives which drove them on to revolution. Yet this British policy has been fully realized towards the Southern States by the Northern States. The people of the Southern States are not only taxed for the benefit of the Northern States, but after the taxes are collected, three- fourths of them are expended at the North. This cause, with others, connected with the operation of the General Government, has made the cities of the South provincial. Their growth is paralyzed; they are mere suburbs of Northern cities. The agricultural productions of the South are the basis of the foreign commerce of the United States; yet Southern cities do not carry it on. Our foreign trade is almost annihilated. In 1740, there were five ship-yards in South Carolina, to build ships to carry on our direct trade with Europe. Between 1740 and 1779, there were built in these yards, twenty-five square rigged vessels, besides a great number of sloops and schooners, to carry on our coast and West India trade. In the half century immediately preceding the Revolution, from 1725 to 1775, the population of South Carolina increased seven-fold.
Declaration Debate of South Carolina
What is mentioned first and foremost in this address? Interestingly enough, taxes, the most heinous matter forced upon the South by the north
Let's not forget the deception "honest" abe engaged in while preparing the Sumter expedition that arrived on the 13th of April.
"I am directed by the President of the United States to notify you to expect an attempt will be made to supply Fort-Sumpter with provisions only; and that, if such attempt be not resisted, no effort to throw in men, arms, or amunition, will be made, without further notice, or in case of an attack upon the Fort" - Lincoln, message to Gov. Francis Pickens of South Carolina, CSA, April 6, 1861 by delivery of Robert S. Chew
Compare that "provisions only" message to what Lincoln himself had been planning for months in his correspondence to the other yankees...
"Last night I received your letter giving an account of your interview with Gen. Scott, and for which I thank you. Please present my respects to the General, and tell him, confidentially, I shall be obliged to him to be as well prepared as he can to either hold, or retake, the forts [Sumter and Moultrie], as the case may require, at, and after the inaugeration." - Lincoln, confidential letter to E. B. Washburne, Dec. 21, 1860
"Can you, with all the means now in your control, supply or re-inforce Fort Sumpter within that time?...If not, what amount of means and of what description, in addition to that already at your control, would enable you to supply and reinforce that fortress within the time?" - Lincoln to Gen. Winfield Scott, March 9, 1861
"The secretary of the Navy will please cause three complete sets of signal books telegraphic & common to be delivered to the bearer." - Lincoln, confidential memo to Gideon Welles, Secretary of the Navy, directing the delivery of signal books presumably to Anderson at Sumter for coordination with a naval fleet.
"On the information of Capt. Fox, he had supposed you could hold out till the 15th. inst. without any great inconvenience; and had prepared an expedition to relieve you before that period. Hoping still that you will be able to sustain yourself till the 11th. or 12th. inst. the expedition will go forward; and, finding your flag flying, will attempt to provision you, and, in case the effort is resisted, will endeavor also to reinforce you." - Lincoln by letter of Simon Cameron to Maj. Robert Anderson, commander of the Fort Sumter Garrison, April 4, 1861. This letter did not reach delivery.
"Should the authorities at Charleston, however, refuse to permit or attempt to prevent the vessel or vessels having supplies on board from entering the harbor, or from peaceably proceeding to Fort Sumter, you will protect the transports or boats of the expedition in the object of their mission-disposing of your force in such manner as to open the way for their ingress and afford, so far as practicable, security to the men and boats, and repelling by force, if necessary, all obstructions towards provisioning the fort and re-enforcing it; for in case of resistance to the peaceable primary object of the expedition a re-enforcement of the garrison will also be attempted. These purposes will be under the supervision of the War Department, which has charge of the expedition. The expedition has been intrusted to Captain G. V. Fox, with whom you will put yourself in communication, and co-operate with him to accomplish and carry into effect its object." - Gideon Welles, Secretary of the Navy, to Samuel Mercer, Captain USS Powhatan, April 5, 1861
The bomb was the best and final answer. Most believe that there would have been between 100,000 -1,000,000 US casualties if we had invaded and many, many more Japanese. Sorry, Truman did the right thing.
And for the record, the Lawrence raid was most immediately provoked by an atrocity committed by the yankee military on Jayhawker influence via Senator Lane.
A week before, union command had rounded up the wives and children of known confederates in western missouri for imprisonment. One of the makeshift prisons was a shaky old building in disrepair that was filled with prisoners despite its known structural flaws. The building collapsed killing several of the imprisoned civilians and injuring several more. "Bloody" Bill Anderson, one of the main organizers of the Lawrence raid, was provoked into action by the prison collapse. One of his sisters was killed and another severely crippled by it.
Really? Cause Sherman directly sanctioned murder in multiple cases, not to mention many other things such as arson, theft, and looting. In one case he even went so far as to assert he would protect his sanctioned looters life for life if anybody tried to stop them. Granted, I don't think Sherman ever sanctioned rape, though Butler did in New Orleans. Here's just a small sample of the many, many yankee sanctions and concessions of atrocities by northern commanders:
"I will not only retaliate as I have already mentioned, but there shall not be a house left standing within reach of my scouting parties along my line of march, nor will I be responsible for the conduct of my soldiers, who will not only be allowed but encouraged to take a fearful revenge." - Gen. J. Kilpatrick, US, notifying confederate command of his explicitly ordered retaliation against southern civilians who had shot at the yankee looters and arsonists, February 22, 1865
"You speak in your communication of my threat to burn houses, &c., as being "too brutal for you or your Government to entertain." No matter how brutal it may seem, I have the power and will enforce it to the letter , and more, lf this course is persisted in, I will not only allow but encourage my people to retaliate man forman. I shall take no action for the present." - Gen J. Kilpatrick, US, responding to the confederate answer to the previous quote in which it was pointed out that his men were engaging in warfare against civilians, February 23, 1865
"I hold about 1,000 prisoners captured in various ways, and can stand it as long as you; but I hardly think these murders are committed with your knowledge, and would suggest that you give notice to the people at large that every life taken by them simply results in the death of one of your Confederates. Of course you cannot question my right to "forage on the country." It is a war right as old as history. The manner of exercising it varies with circumstances, and if the civil authorities will supply my requisitions I will forbid all foraging. But I find no civil authorities who can respond to calls for forage or provisions, therefore must collect directly of the people. I have no doubt this is the occasion of much misbehavior on the part of our men, but I cannot permit an enemy to judge or punish with wholesale murder. Personally I regret the bitter feelings engendered by this war, but they were to be expected, and I simply allege that those who struck the first blow and made war inevitable ought not, in fairness, to reproach us for the natural consequences. I merely assert our war right to forage and my resolve to protect my foragers to the extent of life for life. " - Gen. W.T. Sherman, US, to Gen. W. Hampton, CS, informing him of his ordered continuation and sanction for northern looting of southern civilian property, February 24, 1865
"I expect Kilpatrick here this p.m. and will send him well to the left. He reports that two men of his foraging parties were murdered after capture by the enemy and labeled "Death to all foragers." Now, it is clearly our war right to subsist our army on the enemy. Napoleon always did it, but could avail himself of the civil powers he found in existence to collect forage and provisions by regular impressments. We cannot do that here, and I contend if the enemy fails to defend his country we may rightfully appropriate what we want. If our foragers act under mine, yours, or other proper authority, they must be protected. I have ordered Kilpatrick to select of his prisoners man for man, shoot them, and leave them by the roadside labeled, so that our enemy will see that for every man he executes he takes the life of one of his own." - William T. Sherman to Major-General Howard, Commanding Right Wing, February 23, 1865
"Send over about Fairmount and Adairsville, burn ten or twelve houses of known secessionists, kill a few at random, and let it be known that it will be repeated every time a train is fired upon rom Resaca to Kingston" - Gen. William T. Sherman, orders to Gen. Louis Watkins, 1864
"Our armies traverse the land and waves of disaffection, sedition and crime close in behind and our track disappears. But one thing is certain, there is a class of people, men, women, and children who must be killed or banished before we can hope for peace and order even as far South as Tennessee." - Gen. William T. Sherman, letter to Stanton, June 21, 1864
"Every time the telegraph wire is cut we would burn a house; every time a train was fired upon we would hang a man; and we would continue to do this until every house was burned and every man hanged between Decatur and Bridgeport." - Col. John Beatty, US, recollection of events in Paint Rock, Alabama
"As the officers and soldiers of the United States have been subject to repeated insult from the women (calling themselves ladies) of New Orleans, in return for the most scrupulous non-interference and courtesy on our part, it is ordered that hereafter when any female shall, by word, gesture, or movement, insult or show contempt for any officer or soldier of the United States, she shall be regarded and held liable to be treated as a woman of the town plying her avocation." - Gen. Benjamin Butler, orders to federal troops to use female civilians meeting the said qualifications as prostitutes, May 15, 1862
"For five days, ten thousand of our men worked hard and with a will, in that work of destruction, with axes, sledges, crowbars, clawbars, and with fire, and I have no hesitation in pronouncing the work well done. Meridian with its Depots, Storehouses, Arsenals, offices, Hospitals, Hotels, and Cantonments, no longer exists." - Gen. William T. Sherman to Gen. Grant, 1864
"My movement to Meridian stampeded all Alabama. Polk retreated across the Tombigbee and left me to break railroads and smash things at pleasure ...We lived off the country and made a swath of desolation 50 miles broad across the State of Mississippi" - Gen. William T. Sherman to Gen. Henry Halleck, 1864
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