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U.S. Won't Allow Guns in Cockpits
AP ^ | 2-21-2002 | JONATHAN D. SALANT

Posted on 05/21/2002 7:34:17 AM PDT by Cagey

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To: mattdono
This is just one more example (in a burgeoning mountain of evidence) of just how far this Nation has fallen from it's senses.

Can anybody imagine such a discussion about not arming stagecoach drivers a hundred of so years ago if there was a known threat on the road (indians, highwaymen)? Or for that matter, disarming the passengers? If a politician had tried that, he would have been ridden out of town on a rail,... if he was lucky enough to escape with his life ahead of the mob of enraged citizens!

241 posted on 05/21/2002 12:25:21 PM PDT by Gritty
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To: jpl
Another bad decision by the Bush administration. I just can't understand what is going on with these guys.

Bush is a statist. Who was installed by statists. No one who seriously believes in a return to individual sovereignty is going to be allowed any high office: the parties and power-brokers have already decided that.

What this administration is doing should come as no surprise to anyone keeping score.

242 posted on 05/21/2002 12:26:32 PM PDT by Darth Sidious
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To: Cagey
This decision is proof positive that our elected and appointed officials (few have earned the right to be called "leaders") DO NOT understand the asymmetric nature of the war against terrorism.

Insofar as anything in this universe is a certainty, there WILL be more terrorist attacks. A robust defense in depth provides the highest probability of prevention and mitigation. It is the only MORAL answer.

It is not a question of whether a locked door, guard dog, alarm system, armed homeowner, or additional police presence on the street is the best deterrent to a thief; the war on terrorism DEMANDS the equivalent of all of the above. The consequences of failure are too high to accept anything else.

In fact, the single greatest improvement to domestic security against terrorism would be an armed citizenry. It would place every terrorist in the interior position, surrounded, outgunned, and outmanned. A very untenable position from which to fight, but in the case of suicidal terrorists, a difficult position from which to plan and execute.

The fact that our officials reject armed citizens AND reject profiling (which in less emotionally charged terms simply means using the laws of probability and the unmatched pattern recognition abilities of the human brain) to fight terrorists demonstrates the amateur nature of their response and incompetence of our officials.

No true warrior (or citizen) should tolerate such misfeasance.

243 posted on 05/21/2002 12:26:57 PM PDT by Natty Bumppo@frontier.net
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To: Cagey
John Magaw, undersecretary for transportation security

Is this the guy who led the charge at Ruby Ridge or Waco?

244 posted on 05/21/2002 12:28:08 PM PDT by scouse
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To: Your Nightmare
You need to explain exactly how I was committing the fallacies you are accusing me of. (And isn't there a fallacy for when someone accuses another of committing falacies instead of addressing their points? If there isn't, there should be. Maybe the VRWC_minion Falacy? Has a nice ring to it.)

I explained two already. The one regarding slippery slope is where you put forward all the bad consequences without specifying them and stating realistic potentials. Another was your branding the proposal as simplistic which is an example of complex question.

You might find this site interesting

http://www.datanation.com/fallacies/index.htm

You may not be a liberal but your tendency toward arguing based on logical fallacies makes you prone to the disease.

245 posted on 05/21/2002 12:29:06 PM PDT by VRWC_minion
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To: Your Nightmare
When did I say there was something wrong with owning guns? I believe I have be very consistant in my point that arming pilots is not the solution to this problem, having an armed air marshall IS part of the solution.... Where's that guy with all the fallacies when you need him?

The other poster is not only guilty of a logical fallacy of straw man, your opinion about guns has never been stated and is not relevant to the issue.

246 posted on 05/21/2002 12:33:32 PM PDT by VRWC_minion
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To: Cagey
Mineta is a di-k.
247 posted on 05/21/2002 12:34:14 PM PDT by Clemenza
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Comment #248 Removed by Moderator

Comment #249 Removed by Moderator

To: You are here
I know that you like to be a contarian, but I am afraid that you have responded to the wrong FREEPER.

I am 100% pro-gun. I totally believe that the government has caved to the pro-gun movement in all-too-many scenarios.

At this point, I am at a loss as to how you think that I missed a point. Especially considering the fact that you are reply # 249. What point of yours could I have possibly missed, since you didn't start posting until post #248. If you are talking about the general issue of arming pilots, then we have already covered that ground.

I think maybe you should read through the whole thread before you begin to reply, newbie!

250 posted on 05/21/2002 12:50:57 PM PDT by mattdono
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To: Cagey; Marine Inspector
"Alright Granny! No more of your lip. Up against the wall and spread 'em. Aha! Nail Clippers! I knew you were packin' you lyin' old crone!"
251 posted on 05/21/2002 1:18:53 PM PDT by PsyOp
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To: Crowcreek
No problem here -- I'll just bring a 'softie' seat-pack emergency chute next time I fly.

Really! You do know, of course that those doors won't open in flight, don't you? Better hope the terrorist blows a big hole in the fuselage for you to jump through. ;-]

252 posted on 05/21/2002 1:22:54 PM PDT by PsyOp
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Comment #253 Removed by Moderator

To: KirklandJunction
The aircraft IS pressurized (to continuos bleed fromthe engine compressors) to 9,000 - 10,000 feet equivilent air pressure) while flying at an amospheric pressure of 35,000 (some-odd) feet elevation.

Yes - the hatch resembles a submarine hatch ---- as do the baggage compartment hatches and wing escape doors. (Actually, they are a bit more expensive and elaborate than a submarine hatch ... though withstanding less pressure differential pressure. The hatch reinforced frames, and the hatch itself, carry the structural loads of the aircraft as it flexs and moves during flight. (Witness the several jets that have crashed when the baggage hatches fail during flight....)

The cabin IS pressurized continuously to replace the tens of thousands of cubic feet of air that naturally bleed out during flight through the compensation valves, the cabin and baggage compartment, and the atmospheric vents ... ONE more little hole form a mythical bullet doesn't compare to the existing 2 square foot hole ALREADY there in these systems.

254 posted on 05/21/2002 1:25:46 PM PDT by Robert A Cook PE
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To: Cagey
I thought the pilots were already undergoing training with stun guns. I'm positive I heard this through a United Airline pilot.
255 posted on 05/21/2002 1:26:51 PM PDT by Alissa
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Comment #256 Removed by Moderator

To: Your Nightmare
Your answer still indicates you'd prefer to shoot down the airplane rather than let the pilots defend themselves as they need to against UNFORSEEN FUTURE attacks. You would rather shoot down airliners than let responsible Americans defend themselves.

Why are you afraid of responsible Americans defending themselves?

We ahve shown that the cockpit doors ARE NOT on present aircraft, don't work if they were, and can't be installed, nor can they be left shut during flight.

We have shown that ANY air marshall can be immediately killed silently and quickly ... if by nothing else than a plastic stick THROUGH the seat behind him right into his gut.

THAT gives the hijacker IMMEDIATE and UNPREVENTABLE access to the MARSHALL's gun ... WHILE LEAVING THE PILOT (the ONLY person who needs a weapon!) STILL disarmed. Against the NOW ARMED attackers.

257 posted on 05/21/2002 1:32:14 PM PDT by Robert A Cook PE
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To: daiuy
Yes .. replacing perhaps 10% - 5% of the air each cycle from outside. The rest?

Just figure you're re-breathing your own gas too.

258 posted on 05/21/2002 1:33:33 PM PDT by Robert A Cook PE
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Comment #259 Removed by Moderator

To: Cagey
Lots of "would-be" terrorists are celebrating right now.
260 posted on 05/21/2002 1:38:11 PM PDT by PLK
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