Posted on 05/21/2002 7:34:17 AM PDT by Cagey
How are you going to put 6 feet of "new stuff" in the doorway and still operate the emergency door? (Which by the way) is highly pressurized and a part of the structural integrity of the plane.....it can't move.)
You posit that every hijacker would have a gun. Though I am not sure the airline security is better than it was pre-9/11, I don't think a gun would be the likely weapon. They would likely be able to get a knife or other sharp instrument, but not a gun.
Also, as freeeee points out, the attacker would have to come through the "funnel of death". If the terrorist has a flight attendant, plunk both of them. If it saves the plane, the other people on the plane, and thousands on the ground (or in a building), then that is the way it needs to be.
Again, I think that it needs to be a combination of all of the things:
So, you're falling for their trick? Please see post #43.
This announcement came from those who serve in the executive branch. They were appointed by Bush, they answer to Bush, Bush is their boss, the buck stops with him.
This is a huge decision of the utmost national importance, and it is hugely naïve to believe that it was made without the direct order of Bush. Well, that is unless Bush has no control over the people that work for him.
Why are you afraid of an armed pilot?
To YOUR LOGIC, then EVERY passenger should be armed.
Doors are relocated/added/removed all the time. That's why most of the currect freighters are converted from passenger a/c.
Lockheed had a plan like this in the '60s
It does wonders for them when the person at the table next to them goes boom. What a peaceful, safe country Israel is with all it's armed citizen! Guns really do solve every problem! My hair even has more bounce!!
Armed pilots are not the panacea for this situation. Although the MAY be a piece of the puzzle.
Oh, one more thing...I believe that their pilots are packin'!
You've never "wired" a cockpit, conning tower, sonar room, radio room, weapons system, or control room have you?
You've never "built" anything - plane, sub, ship, radio room, relay center, phone center, computer lab, or power plant or message center, have you?
You are wrong. In failing to pass of your false choice fallacy you now are trading it for another logical fallacy called straw man. In fact just about every argument you made is a different logical fallacy, including Complex Questions, Slippery Slope, False Dilemma and more. (Did you take special class in arguing via fallacies ?)
Nearly everyone advocating armed pilots has done so assuming it is a last resort. I don't hear the pilots saying that they don't want secure doors or armed Marshalls. In fact assuming that to be the case is not rational.
Good luck getting the door open (ain't gonna happen)!
It is my understanding Israeli pilots are armed.
Sounds like a submarine term, which airplanes ain't.
Done some of the things you listed, not others.
If I gave a damn about this time-killer, I'd give you websites of freighter conversions that included sealing some doors and cutting new cargo doors. Find 'em yourself.
Security on Israel's national airline carrier, El Al, begins long before takeoff. Every passenger is checked through Interpol for a criminal record before the flight, said Israeli Defense Ministry spokesman Shlomo Dror, a former airline security guard.
At Israel's Ben Gurion International Airport, cars are examined as they enter the airport compound by uniformed guards armed with mini-Uzi submachine guns. Plainclothes security guards, wearing the standard loose-fitting jackets that cover bulging weapons holsters, patrol the airport building and entrances.
Bomb scares, often triggered by careless travelers briefly leaving pieces of luggage out of sight, occur frequently.
On Wednesday, Israeli TV broadcast an airport bomb scare live, showing police directing people out of the terminal. It lasted less than a minute.
El Al terminals overseas are guarded by armed Israeli security personnel, and security checks are just as strict as in Israel.
All passengers undergo some form of questioning during check-in. Most are questioned briefly and continue. Others have all the contents of their luggage — to the smallest toothpaste tube — examined.
By questioning passengers, guards can quickly spot those who appear nervous, said Leo Gleser, a former El Al security officer and head of ISDS, a security consulting firm.
In Israel, profiling means Arabs and certain foreigners are singled out for intense grilling, while most Israeli Jews quickly proceed to check-in. Israeli officials would not talk about profile parameters.
Gleser said profiling was necessary, because if all the hundreds of passengers boarding an airliner were questioned in depth, that plane would never get off the ground.
In the case of Tuesday's hijackers, "not all of them would have made it onto the plane" if the Israeli approach to security had been used, Gleser said. "If you detect one, you can start to ask questions" that might lead to the other members of the group.
During check-in, high-tech explosives detection equipment is then used to examine all luggage, said a former El Al security chief, Tuvia Livneh. In 1986, security guards detected a bomb planted in the luggage of a pregnant Irish woman by her Palestinian boyfriend, without her knowledge.
El Al is probably the only airline that places all its cargo in decompression chambers before takeoff, Livneh said. At least 10 planes have been blown up with explosives set off by a barometric fuse, sensitive to altitude, he said.
The last lines of defense are armed, undercover guards seated on the plane, he said.
In 1970, a Palestinian hijacker was killed and another, Leila Khaled, was captured when their hijacking attempt was foiled by an armed guard during an El Al flight.
And even if all the measures fail, a hijacker still "could not get into the cockpit of an Israeli plane," said Neri Yarkoni, former head of Israeli Civil Aviation Administration and a pilot himself. The cockpit door is locked as soon as the pilot enters, he said, an anti-hijack procedure that has been used for decades.
El Al also uses other "technological means" in order to protect its flights, Livneh confirmed, although he refused to elaborate.
Livneh, whose company, Sital International, advises a number of airports and airlines on security matters, said budget constraints often limit anti-terror operations.
He described the security situation in airports outside Israel as "very bad.
"It's a pity it takes a lesson like this to happen to teach them to boost security," he said.
Yarkoni said crucial mistakes were made Tuesday in the United States. The first two planes which hit the World Trade Center may have surprised the authorities, but he said the third plane should have been found and shot down before crashing into the Pentagon 45 minutes later.
Israeli warplanes would have been airborne within minutes, he said, while it took the U.S. air force an hour to launch its fighters. "We live in a different reality," he explained. "Here, this is routine."
I'll bet It's against the law to board an airliner with a parachute.
Next week: It's against the law to board a boat with a life preserver.
When did I say there was something wrong with owning guns? I believe I have be very consistant in my point that arming pilots is not the solution to this problem, having an armed air marshall IS part of the solution. How can you conclude that by wanting an armed air marshall on flights instead of armed pilots that I want to take everyone's guns away?
Where's that guy with all the fallacies when you need him?
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