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U.S. Won't Allow Guns in Cockpits
AP ^ | 2-21-2002 | JONATHAN D. SALANT

Posted on 05/21/2002 7:34:17 AM PDT by Cagey

WASHINGTON (AP) - The federal government said Tuesday that pilots will not be allowed to have guns in the cockpits of commercial airplanes.

The announcement was made at a Senate Commerce Committee hearing by John Magaw, undersecretary for transportation security. It followed months of debate over whether arming pilots would be a deterrent to hijackers.

Both Transportation Secretary Norman Y. Mineta and Homeland Security Director Tom Ridge previously indicated their opposition to arming pilots.

Magaw gave no reason for his decision, which was announced in response to a question from Arizona Sen. John McCain, the top Republican on the committee.

Magaw said a formal announcement will be made later in the week.

Airline pilots have been pushing for guns, saying it would allow them to confront a hijacker who breaks into the cockpit. Hijackers took over four commercial airlines on Sept. 11, crashing two of them into the World Trade Center and a third into the Pentagon. The fourth crashed in a field in Pennsylvania.

Flight attendants, meanwhile, have advocated nonlethal weapons, such as stun guns, that they could use in emergencies.

Sen. Ernest Hollings, D-S.C., who chairs the Commerce Committee, said guns would not be needed as long as pilots kept cockpit doors locked while in flight.

"You can put the rule in right now and cut out all the argument about pistols and stun guns," Hollings said.

Opponents of arming pilots have said reinforced cockpit doors now required on all planes mean that pistols are unnecessary. They have also expressed concern that an errant shot might hit a passenger or damage a key electrical system on the plane.

Two House Republicans have introduced legislation to arm pilots and the House Transportation Committee is scheduled to take up the bill this week.


TOPICS: Breaking News; Government
KEYWORDS: aircraft; banglist; guns; pilots
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To: VRWC_minion
That has been my point. Let the have it all...then we will be sure to doing "everything within [our] power to protect the American people".
201 posted on 05/21/2002 11:22:04 AM PDT by mattdono
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Comment #202 Removed by Moderator

To: Your Nightmare
Simple answer: The "Sky Marshall" would have been the first one wth his throat slit ..... Easy target: Sitting still, gun in holster inside a covering coat or jacket. Seat belted. And the guy from the seat behind him reachs over and slits his throat in one motion. In less than a 1/2 second.

Silent. Deadly. Instantaneous.

The hijackers on 9/11 WERE DISARMED! One person with a weapon could stand them off, kill them in the aisle, or at the cabin.

This is an hysterical reaction BY THE DEMOCRATS, THE GUN CONTROL LOBBY, THE LIBERALS AND THE FEDERAL GUN CONTROL BUREACRACY.

They hate, fear, and loath the idea of ANY person being able to defend themselves.

203 posted on 05/21/2002 11:23:07 AM PDT by Robert A Cook PE
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To: Pistolshot
Lastly, an errant shot through a window in the plane will....will cause explosive decompression and possible loss of the aircraft. Want that shot to go through the cockpit windows along with the pilots?

I think that you have been excoriated enough on this point, but I will pile on with one additional fact.

This is what "frangible" ammunition is made for. It does not pierce the skin of the aircraft, but it has stopping power. And, that is fact.

204 posted on 05/21/2002 11:26:06 AM PDT by mattdono
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To: Your Nightmare
No, it's like saying that there is a better chance to twart terrorists if the pilot can concentrate on piloting

Flying the plane might be difficult for the pilot if he's DEAD. The idea is that armed pilots stay alive to retain control of the plane.

not trying to be Arnold Schwarzenegger blasting terrorist with guns in both hands while he lands the plane with his pinky toe.

There is a co-pilot and an auto-pilot. The vast majority of the time the plane is in the air, the plane is on auto-pilot and the flight crew monitors the instruments. Anyone charging the cockpit must pass through a small door (this type of entry point is known to some military types as "the funnel of death"), and stopping them with a handgun is like shooting fish in a barell. Even my little sister could do it.

Have you any other BS reasons for us?

205 posted on 05/21/2002 11:26:41 AM PDT by freeeee
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To: Lazarus Long
I could find no specific info in a search...but I would think at least a .38, .45 or 9mm would be required. Probably would fall in line with the same types of weapons any peace officer would carry.
206 posted on 05/21/2002 11:27:21 AM PDT by ravingnutter
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To: Robert A. Cook, PE
Name a bad scenario - if the pilot were armed.


OK. On 9/11, the pilots were coerced to open the cabin doors by threats to (and possibly killing) the rest of the crew. Couldn't a pilot just as easily have been coerced into giving up his gun? Now you have terrorist armed with a guns who have free access to the cockpit.

[can't wait for the heroic scenario where a pilot shoots 5 terrorists right between the eyes before any of them have a chance to slit a crewmember's throat with boxcutters]

Ya'll can talk all ya'll want about arming pilots, but flights will always be safer if the pilot never has to open to cockpit doors!

207 posted on 05/21/2002 11:27:27 AM PDT by Your Nightmare
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To: Your Nightmare
I guess we need to make the cabin doors impenetrable

Impenetrable doors are a myth. Never before have they been created in history.

208 posted on 05/21/2002 11:28:09 AM PDT by VRWC_minion
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To: Lazarus Long
Anyway, my question is about the Marshalls. Is that idea dead in the water?

See post #84 for the Pilot's take on your question.

209 posted on 05/21/2002 11:30:37 AM PDT by Cagey
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To: mattdono
I must admit that your plan has a certain appeal..... 8#)
210 posted on 05/21/2002 11:33:25 AM PDT by tracer
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To: VRWC_minion
The answer is (secured doors + marhsall + armed pilots). Assuming the first two fail then you would be praying that the pilot was armed.


I wouldn't necessarily say "no armed pilots", my point is that arming the pilots is nowhere near a solutions to protecting our flights and is probably the least effective of the three things you mentioned. People are getting all riled up about it here because they can't see past "guns = problem solved".

211 posted on 05/21/2002 11:34:02 AM PDT by Your Nightmare
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Comment #212 Removed by Moderator

To: freeeee
Hint: a grenade disguised as an avocado......
213 posted on 05/21/2002 11:35:21 AM PDT by tracer
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Comment #214 Removed by Moderator

To: mattdono
Well, I call the folly of hiring many hundreds of K's of ineffectual federale pensionsaires for screeners and air marshalls at a HUGE future tax burden to my children and grandchildren to be an attack as much as any terrorist might mount, though not *directly* as bloody.
215 posted on 05/21/2002 11:36:11 AM PDT by bvw
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To: Your Nightmare
Why have cockpit doors to the passenger cabin?

Move the forward bulkhead aft, install toilet, food, as appropriate in the cockppit, use the forward passenger door for sole cockpit access on ground.

Denying control access works. Anyone ever hijacked an escalator?

Yes, everyone in the passenger cabin is subject to looney tunes on board, but how many terrorists would bother buying a ticket if they knew there was NO way to get forward? Could a uniformed assigned pilot go nuts? Sure. Likely? Look at their track record.

216 posted on 05/21/2002 11:37:43 AM PDT by KirklandJunction
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To: VRWC_minion
Impenetrable doors are a myth. Never before have they been created in history.


It's as much a myth as an armed pilot being able to solve any situation.

BTW, I may be wrong here, but hasn't it been over 20 years since an Israeli plane was highjacked? Couldn't we use there model as an example of what works?

217 posted on 05/21/2002 11:38:00 AM PDT by Your Nightmare
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Comment #218 Removed by Moderator

To: freeeee
This was not a presidential decison.
219 posted on 05/21/2002 11:39:49 AM PDT by rwfromkansas
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To: Cagey
I am disappointed, but as long as they allow stun guns, I can accept it. If they don't, I will be angry and want Mineta out.
220 posted on 05/21/2002 11:40:40 AM PDT by rwfromkansas
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