Famed Harvard Biologist Gould Dies

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=514&ncid=716&e=2&u=/ap/20020520/ap_on_re_us/obit_gould ^ | 5/20/02 | yahoo

[rpage3]

See source for details....

[codebreaker]

'Perfect love' are those peoples of the wolrd being elgilble for Christ's forgivenss, should they choose to ask for it.

[longshadow]

space-time place-moment marker

[jlogajan]

then the evolution of predators (including humans who prey on other humans) must cause us to conclude that might makes right.

False. It would require that self-defense be forbidden in some absolute sense. Since that is not the case, since even the weak still have the prerogative to attempt self-defense, that would be inconsistent with a view that "might makes right."

Self-defense is universal, every creature can apply it without contradicting another's. "Might makes right" is asymmetrical -- it immediately contradicts another's assertion of same, as well as their self-defensive right.

[jlogajan]

No. Christians believe what Christ said. "No man comes to the Father but through Me."

It is man's refusal of Christ's offer that dooms him to hell. Not a vengeful God.

So in fact, Jews, Hindus, Muslims, pagans et al are damned to eternal hell fire. Yes or no???

[codebreaker]

What does having an inquiring mind have to do with being a good Christian?

That is awfully persumptious..

[jlogajan]

'Perfect love' are those peoples of the wolrd being elgilble for Christ's forgivenss, should they choose to ask for it.

So in the real world, if a guy threatens to kill a girl he is fixated on unless she asks for forgiveness and confesses to love him -- then he is showing "perfect love" if she does so -- by not killing her.

Nice religion.

[jlogajan]

What does having an inquiring mind have to do with being a good Christian?

In fact they would seem to be inimical concepts.

[verity]

It is amazing where one can find a Tempest-in-a-Teapot. :~()

[Gumlegs]

Thanks, Vade. I read this in the paper this morning. There are days when I'm not sure I want the news.

[AndrewC]

Note my definition of morals (I define my terms for an argument so that there can be no weasling out later -- oh how I wish my opponents would take the hint): Morality is the complex interplay between the needs of the individual and the needs of the group, with the group's long-term needs taking precedence over the individual's short term needs. Such a concept is not required to be enforced by God (God seldom intervenes anyway) and exists solely within the social construct of the group.

Your desire to define words so that they will support your contentions, does not obligate others to accept your definition. You are defining morals as necessarily ad hoc to support your contention that morals exist apart from God. What are a group's long term needs?

[r9etb]

Self-defense is universal, every creature can apply it without contradicting another's. "Might makes right" is asymmetrical -- it immediately contradicts another's assertion of same, as well as their self-defensive right.

What this says is that we must in some sense consider the evolution of predators to be an embodiment of evil.

[truenospinzone]

"Compassionate Conservative Christian" placemarker. The Left thanks you for the ammunition, I'm sure.

[r9etb]

What are a group's long term needs?

By Junior's definition, they are whatever the group decides they are. And, by extension, morality describes the "complex interplay" that allows the group to achieve its goals. Thus, in one blow, we've done away with individual rights, any hope for absolute morality, any moral arguments against conquest and enslavement, and I'm sure several others.

[Junior]

Exactly. All I ask is that my opponents define their terms. HWWNBN is notorious for changing his story in mid-stride. I am simply putting my definitions out there for all to see. If the definition comes up short later, I'll consider redefining the term, but then I'll post the new definition so there will be no weasling out later.

[codebreaker]

How is stating the facts of Christianity not being a 'Compassionate Conservative?'

I would argue that it is MORE compassionate to tell non-believers what they are facing if they do not repent.

[Junior]

What are a group's long term needs?

Survival and propogation. Everything comes down to this.

[codebreaker]

Of course that is a ridiculous example, you can come up with something better than that!

[PatrickHenry]

Placemarker.

[Heartlander]

“The principles behind evolution are ideas such as the selfish gene, and survival of the fittest. An offshoot of evolutionary thinking is the relatively new field of sociobiology. In another essay (Sociobiology: Evolution, Genes and Morality) , I defined sociobiology as the biological basis for ALL social behavior. In other words, our behaviors are the result natural selection as much as our physical characteristics.”

“For instance, if you ask a sociobiologist the question, why do we love our children, he or she will answer that "we love our children because it works." It is an effective means to raise productive offspring, so it was "selected for" over time. Ultimately, then, from this perspective, all behavior is selfish. Everything we do is geared toward furthering our own survival and the production and the survival of our own offspring. Our behaviors have been selected over time to aid in our survival and reproduction and that's all.”

”Evolution is a wasteful, inefficient process. Carl Sagan says that the fossil record is filled with the failed experiments of evolution. Evolutionary history is littered with dead-ends and false starts. Stephen Jay Gould characterizes the nature of the evolutionary process as one of contingency history. Organisms survive primarily by chance rather than some inherent superiority over other organisms. There is no purpose, no goal, no meaning at all.”
More…

The evolutionist says, “look at this tree, it is merely a product of genes and environment,” and he is correct in his statement. The fallacy comes in when he draws this comparison to man. Man is much more, and once more the evolutionist looks at his tree but misses the forest.

There is good and bad. Morality is the ‘choice’ we make between the two; good and evil. A tree does not ‘choose’ to grow into its’ shape but man has ‘free will’ to choose his behavior.

And here is an interesting read for my Roman Catholic friend.
Gould and the Pope

[Junior]

How are individual rights done away with? Groups are made of individuals and the group must recognize the needs, indeed the "rights" of the individuals within it or it ceases to function (cf., the Soviet Union). That is all part of the "complex interplay" mentioned above.