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Denver Judge Axes the Constitution - Update of Rick Stanley's 2A/Civil Disobedience Trial
The Stanley for U.S. Senate 2002 Colorado Campaign - News Release ^ | May 15, 2002 | Stanley for U.S. Senate 2002 - Colorado

Posted on 05/16/2002 3:05:12 AM PDT by LibertyRocks

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To: sinkspur
Not at all. I was arguing with someone who thinks he ought to be able to decide Constitutionality of a law along with the guilt or innocence of a defendant.

Is justice done when a person is convicted under an unjust law? The intent of our courts is to ensure that justice is done. Everyone in the court - the judge, jury, and attorneys - has the overriding concern that justice is done. Sadly, that idea is lost under mounds and mounds of laws, precedent, corrupt judges and prosecutors, lazy or crooked lawyers, and we the people can no longer find justice. The juror doesn't necessarily decide the constitutionality of a law, he decides among all other things he must consider whether the law being applied is just, whether it is right, and whether justice will be done in the particular situation before him.

361 posted on 05/16/2002 4:14:41 PM PDT by Spiff
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To: Maelstrom
If you can't be impartial for disagreeing with the law, you are no more able to be impartial for agreeing with the law.

This is illogical on its face, but you don't see it, which is not surprising.

If I disagree with a law, it is highly unlikely I would even be on the jury, as I would make certain the court was so informed.

362 posted on 05/16/2002 4:19:12 PM PDT by sinkspur
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To: sinkspur
"The incompetent, lacking a defense always resort to personal insults."

Can you help me find the cite for that quote?
363 posted on 05/16/2002 4:20:52 PM PDT by Maelstrom
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To: BillofRights
What and whom is the U.S. Constitution protecting, then, if a state or city judge can do this?

The Constitution protects us from the abuse of our rights perpetrated by the Federal government. State Constitutions protect us from the abuse of our rights by state and local governments. If our rights are abused, and upon appeal our State Supreme Court rules incorrectly, we appeal to the U.S. Supreme Court to look at our State laws and Constitution and to correct the State Supreme Court if they ruled incorrectly or did not afford us the rights guaranteed under our State Constitution.

In cases where agents of the Federal Government, or Federal Courts have denied us our rights, then we cite the U.S. Constitution when the case appears before the Supreme Court.

That is what was intended. Of course, that isn't how it is being applied today. And that is one of the core reasons our rights are so routinely being abused. We've morphed from the intended Federal system into a National system. That surely was not the intent of the Founding Fathers.

364 posted on 05/16/2002 4:21:00 PM PDT by Spiff
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To: Maelstrom
So too is Stanley's defiance.

Obviously, I disagree. This is a pre-election year stunt which Stanley knew would come to trial about now.

It's red meat for you guys.

365 posted on 05/16/2002 4:21:51 PM PDT by sinkspur
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To: Maelstrom
RE: the statists.

After reading the turgid rationales of the profiteers of human misery on this thread it's not hard to understand the bloodthirstiness of the Roman mobs during the Social Wars.

The betrayal of the sacrifices made by one's ancestors to produce a just polity angers the population as nothing else can. The obvious operation of the res publica to the private advantage of the 'establishment' is odious to the general public.

Once they see it that way. And they will.

Headsonpikes' fearless prediction: The obscure Constitutional reference to 'bills of attainder' will no longer be obscure when such bills are passed to exact revenge on the socialist statists who have corrupted America and her institutions.

366 posted on 05/16/2002 4:21:57 PM PDT by headsonpikes
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To: Roscoe
Oh, I forgot! I left out of my reply #321 to you another action that Rick Stanley has taken. He sent to the press and to Jesse Ventura, a challenge to box him in public. Stanley's reasoning was that if Ventura's camp wants to go around proclaiming that Jesse is the toughest politician in America, then he should have to prove it.

Guess what? Ventura declined the challenge. Just like you did. So I guess I'll just have to wait to see you call Rick Stanley, "an idiot" to his face, macho-man!

367 posted on 05/16/2002 4:22:09 PM PDT by BillofRights
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To: Poohbah
This case would get remanded for appeal on the Judge's statements alone...I was discussing this report with some of the local defense bar this morning. We all had a good laugh over this refusal to allow the defense counsel to voir dir the juror regarding the constitution...a legitimate question given that it was put to a cop.

Then we all shook our heads and wondered how close to the end of time we were...pretty scary if true: "you will not mention the consitution" - IN A COURTROOM FOR CHRIST SAKE?

368 posted on 05/16/2002 4:22:24 PM PDT by Abundy
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To: Maelstrom
Your ex-wife?
369 posted on 05/16/2002 4:24:08 PM PDT by sinkspur
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To: sinkspur

On the contrary, it is your intention to agree with the defendant and to invert the "impartial jury" wording to mean that a juror MUST side with the defendant instead of the law.

Wrong. The juror must be informed that he has the option of judging the law -- jury nullification. That in no way implies that the juror must side with the defendant. The wording in the constitution means to protect the defendant from the seating of a biased jury in favor of the STATE.

The logical conclusion is that you think the constitutional meaning is that the STATE must be protected from an impartial jury being seated in the defendant's favor. But more so you imply the constitutional meaning is to protect the STATE from jurors ensuring above all else that honest/equal justice is upheld.

As I said in my previous post:

Who decides what is impartial? A Bible?...The Koran?...The Constitution?

Amendment VI of the Bill Of Rights uses the impartial jury wording to mean that juries will not be compelled to side with the STATE. For more than one-hundred years judges routinely upheld the Sixth Amendment as it was meant. Since 1893 judges have regarded that wording with contempt and have foisted biased jurries on defendants since.

Your intention is to agree with the STATE and judges and invert 180-degrees the 'impartial jury' wording to mean that it is wrong for a citizen/juror to side with the defendant instead of the law.

What will you invert next? That "the people" wording of Amendment II of the Bill Of Rights means the people as a whole/collective or just a STATE militia may keep and bear arms. And that the Second Amendment doesn't apply to an individual ...And does not mean individuals right to keep and bare arms may not be infringed but rather, that the States "right" or militia rights or or the people-collective rights cannot be infringed but the individual's right can be infringed.


370 posted on 05/16/2002 4:25:41 PM PDT by Zon
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To: Spiff
Good points! You could be right. If this be so, why would Stanley's attorney argue U. S. Constitution instead of Colorado Constitution? Incompetence? What's your guess?
371 posted on 05/16/2002 4:26:42 PM PDT by BillofRights
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To: sinkspur
Eminent domain? You don't LIKE certain laws; I don't LIKE certain laws. Overturning them in the jury box is quite another matter.

Eminent domain. Asset forfeiture. Choose your poison.

Jury nullification is a bulwark against such abuse.

372 posted on 05/16/2002 4:27:27 PM PDT by Alan Chapman
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To: Spiff, sinkspur
Is justice done when a person is convicted under an unjust law?

According to the displayed rhetoric, there are no unjust laws, or there are only laws and no justice.

Nonetheless, your only recourse is to vote...but you can't vote for appointed judges...so there you have it. The US, according to sinkspur.
Never a country founded on the principles and ideals of freedom, but only law, to be ruled over by nine kings in dark robes. The Anti-Federalists were prophetic.
373 posted on 05/16/2002 4:28:26 PM PDT by Maelstrom
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To: sinkspur
Doesn't exist, not even as a memory.
374 posted on 05/16/2002 4:32:44 PM PDT by Maelstrom
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To: sinkspur
If I disagree with a law, it is highly unlikely I would even be on the jury, as I would make certain the court was so informed.

You'll have to explain how being prejudiced against a law is less impartial than being prejudiced for a law and why such a stand is indeed logical.
375 posted on 05/16/2002 4:34:43 PM PDT by Maelstrom
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To: Maelstrom
Nonetheless, your only recourse is to vote...but you can't vote for appointed judges...so there you have it. The US, according to sinkspur.

You can vote for the people who will impeach those judges and replace them with those more in line with your beliefs. If that's too much like work for your taste, I understand.

376 posted on 05/16/2002 4:34:44 PM PDT by Poohbah
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To: sinkspur
I would make certain to inform an Alabama court that I believed Jim Crow laws to be unjust. That would, most likely, disqualify me from jury service.

Were you not removed from jury service then I have to conclude you would find for the state provided the prosecution proved beyond a reasonable doubt that the defendant had in fact violated Jim Crow.

What would you say to the other jurors in the deliberation room? Would you voice your objection to Jim Crow or keep your mouth shut and vote guilty?

377 posted on 05/16/2002 4:35:47 PM PDT by Alan Chapman
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Comment #378 Removed by Moderator

To: Poohbah
You can vote for the people who will impeach those judges and replace them with those more in line with your beliefs. If that's too much like work for your taste, I understand.

I defy you to find such people in the 2 major parties. It's not a matter of taste if the cook bars the dish.
379 posted on 05/16/2002 4:36:47 PM PDT by Maelstrom
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To: Alan Chapman
And the big brother knows best judges/lawmakers have been attacking that bulwark for many years.

Didn't Jesus warn the Pharisees about laying a heavy burden of laws on the people and being more concerned with appearances than righteousness ?---That could be applied to our lawmakers today.

This thread has certainly illustrated who believes in statism v. constitutional republicanism.

380 posted on 05/16/2002 4:36:53 PM PDT by hoosierham
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