Posted on 05/04/2002 7:45:25 PM PDT by Tomalak
Of course, they do it without any expectation. They make no demands on the spirit, no self-sacrifice. They offer the greatest fool's gold of all: the free lunch. Which of course is why it's all make-believe, a fairy tale, the stuff of nursery stories.
It's also the cult's greatest weakness. Because people eventually come to realize that if they don't give anything up, they don't get anything. So dressing up in Halloween costumes and chanting 'round the campfire with the coven doesn't make the world a better place. There's no unity since there's no central authority. The "Whatever feels good" philosophy eventually collides with itself, chaos results, and the "disciples" go back to their day jobs. Alas, Mother Earth is left to fend for herself until the next anti-Christian reactionary era.
Obviously when my temper rises, my spelling skills decline. Regardless, your snotty comment about the resurrection of Christ can't go unanswered. I would quote that post directly, but apparently I'm not the only one who thinks you are abusive, as it has been deleted.
The best piece of historical evidence we have, outside the Gospels, is the Holy Shroud. The shroud was found folded in the empty tomb of Christ. For centuries all that could be seen on it was faint markings and bloodstains. But, with the advent of modern scientific techniques, the shroud has been minutely examined and found to contain so complete a record of the passion, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ that it is virtually impossible that it is a forgery, or the burial cloth of anyone else.
Among the facts related to the gospels, which are confirmed on the shroud are the following: bruises on the face, the scourging, which was by two men, one taller than the other, and which covered the entire body; the crown of thorns, which was a cap, not a circlet; the lance wound in the heart and the emission of a watery fluid as well as blood; the nail wounds, which were in the wrists, not the palms, and which severed the median nerves, causing the thumbs to be jammed against the palms, so that the thumbs are invisible on the shroud; the carrying of the cross, which rubbed against the shoulders and produced a large abrasion; the falls, attested by the wounds on the knees and traces of dirt; and the crucifixtion itselt, attested to by the differing patterns of blood caused by the crucified man's raising and lowering of his body in order to breathe.
The shroud image also shows that two coins were placed over the eyes, as was customary in Jewish burials. By high magnification is was determined that the coins were minted by Pontius Pilate in Palestine between October 28 AD and Oct. 31 AD.
The shroud even provides indirect confirmation of the ressurection. If the body in the shroud had decayed in the normal way, or even remained in the shroud for more than a few days, the shroud would have been discolored and eventually iteslf decayed. If the body had been stolen or removed by other natural means, large portions of the shroud would have adhered to the body, as any cloth would adhere to open wounds, and been torn off. In both cases, any image would have been destroyed.
If you would like to discuss the unreliable carbon-14 testing or other arguments for the shroud being a fake, be my guest. I'm ready.
Far be it from me to desire cloudiness on these most critical of issues...individual salvation and the effects on society and history of abandoning the True God for false gods, either individually or as a nation.
Why is what I said a mystery to you?
If there is no transcendent God, then there is no possible reason for me to care one whit about anybody but myself...I am god. The death of anybody but me is irrelevent. The suffering of anybody but myself is not my affair. In fact, it would probably be good to get a whole bunch of folks out of the way, so there is more treasure for me to enjoy in this brief period before I too die and advance on into....nothing.
But of course that is not what I believe. I believe what Christian Americans have believed all along:
That all men are created equal, and are endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights...and that among these are the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness...
If you genuinely believe that[all good things flow from God], then you must be a dualist (which I doubt you are) because, by logical extension, all bad things must flow from somewhere else, which would make Old Scratch co-equal with God.C.S. Lewis answers this in Mere Christianity in the chapter "The Invasion."
Then Lewis attends to the charge that it's all a matter of taste. Which is Good and which is Bad? So he lays out for us some revealing comparisons and juxtapositions of the two forces, until we must confront the paradox here:
But the moment you say that, you are putting into the universe a third thing in addition to the two Powers: some law or standard or rule of good which one of the powers conforms to and the other fails to conform to. But since the two powers are judged by this standard, then this standard, or the Being who made this standard, is farther back and higher up than either of them, and He will be the real God. In fact, what we meant by calling them good and bad turns out to be that one of them is in a right direction to the real ultimate God and the other in as wrong relation to Him.
At the end, Lewis describes supernaturally what we see in the natural world [a connection I make in the link above]. Just as we see natural and man-made parasitics accompany all work or potential for work in the well studied science of thermodynamics, Lewis said this about the bad force.
I have a copy of Mere Christianity on my desk, and have been rereading it as I have had time over the course of the last few days.
I had just read the passages you quoted yesterday, in fact. ;-)
Great stuff, from one of the greatest minds of the twentieth century.
Regards...EV
Ah, but every single example you have given me is from a purely selfish viewpoint...which proves my point.
Then there's the matter of human empathy.
If you are counting on human empathy when the chips are down, completely separate from faith in Christ, you are setting yourself up for a huge disappointment. What millions experienced in the Nazi death camps, and in the Soviet gulag, makes the case so very well that apart from Christianity, mankind; and individual men and women; quickly descend into barbarity and the grossest of selfish bestiality.
What you've described isn't atheism, it's sociopathy.
Atheism ends in sociopathy...always has, and always will.
I'd be more comfortable with someone without a belief in any gods than someone whom I knew was only restrained from torturing or killing me because of a belief in a diety who forbids it.
This statement shows that you lack a basic understanding of true Christianity. Christians don't 'love' because of laws that 'forbid' certain actions...they love because they have been changed on the inside, by the risen and living Christ. They are gifted with a new nature that is created in the image of God...who is love. (Don't willfully misunderstand me and think that I'm saying that Christians do this anything close to perfectly; they don't. They are still struggling with their old nature...God's work within them is far from complete while they remain on this earth.)
Read the New Testament book of Romans for a fuller and much more intelligent explanation of this than I am capable of delivering.
Or maybe there is no inherent distinction between a "Christian Nation" and "Religious Freedom".
Remember the teaching of the (distinctly Messianic Christian) Pharisee Rabban, the Apostle Saint Paul of Tarsus:
Now, what is the teaching comprised herein?
And this, therefore, is the entire sphere of that which you Owe to every Man in neighborly Love, including Rulers; and therefore represents the entire Sphere of that which is the State's to Enforce: To oppose Adultery, To oppose Murder, To oppose Theft, To oppose Fraud, and To oppose the Coercion or Abuse of that which belongs to another Man, and And if there is any other Law, it this -- you shall not commit Aggression against your neighbor.
I submit that a Nation founded upon such Pauline (that is to say, Christian) principles is better than any other Principles which may be offered; for even the Orthodox Jews (whom an unbiased Observer must regard as the most Intellectually-Consistent of the Judaic Religion) have no such provision for dividing the Ten Commandments between State and Church; their model (to which they are entirely consistent) is the Theocracy of Israel.
But Rav Sha'ul (Apostle Paul) offers Christian Jews and Gentiles a new Theonomy, the division of the Law between the duties of the Church (worship of God, hatred for Idolatry, honor of True Religion, respect for the Sabbath, obedience to Parents) and the duties of the State (punishment of Murder, punishment of Adultery, punishment of Theft, punishment of Fraud, punishment of Coercion and Abuse).
Thus a Christian Nation is, if constituted according to the Maxims of Christian Paul, a Free Republic in a way which no Judaic or Muslim or Pagan Nation can ever be:
And now I submit that this creates a dilemma for both Lazamataz and F16Fighter:
I abide in the articulation of Patrick Henry as quoted:
"It cannot be emphasized too often or too strongly that this country was founded NOT by religionists, but BY Christians, NOT on religion, but the Gospel of Jesus Christ....
It is for THIS very reason that people of other faiths have been afforded prosperity, asylum and freedom of worship".
Salvation is found in none other save AUGUSTUS, and no other name is given to men by which they can be saved.
These numismatic Inscriptions upon Roman Coinage pre-date the Ministry of Christ. They were known unto all subjects of the Roman Empire.
In other words, one of the most exclusive descriptions of Christ's Lordship, was not a piece of poetic phrasing which the Apostle Peter imagined on his own. The Apostle Peter deliberately and purposely claimed one of the greatest acclamations of Caesar's Lordship, and, for lack of a better word, deliberately urinated upon the claims of Mortal Man.
Against the threat of Roman Crucifixion, that impetuous fisherman Peter stood up against the Jewish Sanhedrin and their Roman patrons, and declared instead:
Understand what was going on here, people.
APOSTLE PETER DECLARED OPEN WAR UPON THE MESSIAH-STATE OF ROME.
True Christianity is human treason against the Claims of Man to his own Majesty and Divinity.
That is the very IDEA of our Religion.
So it has ever been.
So it shall ever be.
This is seen to be central in the preaching of Paul as he went to the synagogues. For example in the book of ACT 13 he preached this way at verse 32 "We tell you the good news: What God promised our fathers" and that means the gospel. We tell you the gospel. And again these ideas are associated in Paul’s book to the Romans. In chapter 1 he introduces his book this way. ROM 1:1ff "Paul, a servant of Christ Jesus, called to be an apostle and set apart for the gospel of God -- the gospel he promised beforehand through his prophets in the Holy Scriptures regarding his Son, who as to his human nature was a descendant of David, and who through the Spirit of holiness was declared with power to be the Son of God," Son of man, Son of God. Jesus Christ our Lord. The Son is the absolute sovereign ruler and possessor of all nations. By the expressed appointment of the Father who has entrusted all judgment to him. ~~ Jewish Christian Presbyter the rev. Steve Schlissel, "Messiah Rules the Nations"
THAT is "Mere Christianity".
If people would only understand, that is all we are talking about...
...and we are talking about nothing less.
Mere Christianity.
Christians should not be here to coerce Society, but to convert Society. Until we have made disciples of all Nations.
Perhaps if we re-focus ourselves upon Conversion and not Coercion, Mortal Man will understand that we are not here to control him, but rather to save him.
Or perhaps.... Mortal Man will slander us anyway. (shrugs) Big Deal.
Anyway, the True Christian seeks not coercion, but rather conversion.
COERCION belongs to those who look upon the outward appearance. But that does not save anyone.
CONVERSION, on the other hand... actually sticks. It actually means something. Something worthwhile and permanent and Real.
God Bless, OP
And from hence is the present open hostility towards the traditionally dominated "Christian" America from the ever rising neo-pagan movement and it's tools -- the NEA, TV and Barnes & Noble's New Age "teachers", and Secular Humanists.
If the positions of cultural and political "dominance" were to be reversed, the days of Paul's Rome would return pronto for Christians AND all other Deistic religions as well.
True Christianity is human treason against the Claims of Man to his own Majesty and Divinity.
To that may I say that anyone that REALLY reads the NT sees beyond the obvious to the real confrontation that was going on between the natural man and the son of God...the battle was pitched..just who would be the gods. Ye can not serve both God and mammon","render unto Caesar", the over turning of the tables in the temple..
Luk 12:51 Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division:
Mat 10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
They have neutered the gospel and made Jesus the good humor man...THEY HUNG HIM because he would not let them be gods!
No... "deistic religions" would be tolerated.
After all... as rev. Steve Schlissel relates:
But to the Christian, it means that we have to RADICALLY re-adjust our thinking.
As just two examples...
Have we been taking the EASY way out? Have we IMAGINED that we will make the Messiah-State "better" (what a LIE) by opposing the degeneracy and pornographism and evolutionism of Public Schools, when we ought NOT to subject our Covenant Children to these hell-prisons in the first place??
I wonder. I really do. Where is our focus??
You did not miss it... this is the first time I have posted it. ;-)
To that may I say that anyone that REALLY reads the NT sees beyond the obvious to the real confrontation that was going on between the natural man and the son of God...the battle was pitched..just who would be the gods. Ye can not serve both God and mammon","render unto Caesar", the over turning of the tables in the temple..
ExZACTLY right... that is one of the reasons which I am *loving* Chilton's Days of Vengeance (an exposition of Revelation)... he is ALL OVER this "Early Christianity vs. Rome" stuff. Pretty neat.
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