They Were Socialists, and They Were Monsters!

N/A ^ | June 7, 1995 | William Cooper, Thomas Colton Ruthford

[Int]

Then tell me why the word "Socialism" was a part of their name.

Perhaps it was trendy at the time to call yourself a socialist to go against the system? To try to get the Communist constituency? I'm not sure why they called it nationalsozialismus just as I'm not sure why Zhirinovsky calls his party the "Liberal Democratic" Party today...it's like the "Democratic People's Republic of Korea"

Using your interpretation that Socialists always go on the left, where does that put "Libertarian Socialists" (those anarcho-utopian-socialist types)?

[elwoodp]

Why would you include Franco in that list? Franco was a benevolent ruler who saved his country from communism and then wrote the democratic constitution under which Spain now operates. No hint of corruption. No hint of pogroms. Did probably live a little too long.

[arthurus]

distinction about private property.

There was no private property in NAZI Germany. Former owners were allowed/required to keep paper title to property but the state controlled totally the disposition of assets and land of ALL types. When the state tells an "owner" what he WILL do (not can do or may do) with his property then that owner owns nothing. Property and the means of production were socialized in Germany just as they were in the USSR. Both states were run on the same theories. Yhe Soviet version was merely a "purer" (on paper) form. Such systems always show local variation in the details and in the superficial arrangements but they are the same.

Leftists cannot understand this because they are concerned primarily with symbols and labels rather than reality. NAZI must be on the opposite end of the political spectrum because Nazis are not controlled from the Communist center, not because their ideas are any diferent. They have a separate set of personnel and that is anathema to the other socialists. It is sort of like the Hell's Angels and the Pagans. They are the same thing but hate each other with extreme passion.

[vivid1162]

My 10th grade government teacher gave me the best framework for this topic. Communism mandates that the government owns the means of production. Thus elliminating the right of the individual to own private property. Communism is then at place all the way to the left. Socialism holds that the government controls the means of production; so a citizen in a socialist country can own private property but the government has the right to control it. Therefore socialism is to the right of Communism but still a very leftist form of government. Our Republic was founded on the sovereign right of individuals to own both private property and the means of production. The Constitution and Bill of Rights severely limit the rights of government to control private property. So our constitutionally limited form of government would be very rightist. On a scale with 1 being very leftist and 10 being right wing, Stalin's Communism was a 1, Hitler's Nazism was a 2 or 3 and the UK is a about a 5 and our Republic was designed to be a 9. Sadly we have slid to about a 7. It is a very simplistic model but if you look at it from this perspective--you can look at any form of government and any ideaolgy and decide if its to the right or left. Skinheads would endorse a form of government that did not allow gays or jews or blacks to own private property--decidely a leftist aproach.

[arthurus]

Franco was a dictator. He did not rule with an ideology. He did not try to impose any sort of utopia on the Spanish.Opposition was suppressed because it threatened his own position, not because ideas were not correct.He did not strive to build any sort of New Man. He was not a socialist of any sort. Property owners had limits set on their use of resources but could use their property or not use it within those limits.

[Exnihilo]

the Nazi movement was very much associated with the extreme right

Wrong.

[supercat]

Just a second. The Reichstag fire was blamed on Communists by the Nazis. Also there's that distinction about private property. Socialists/Communists want(ed) to totally get rid of it. Nazis didn't.

Stalin's ideology was that he believed Stalin and his friends should control everything, including the means of production. Hitler's ideology was that he believed Hitler should control everything, including the means of production.

The ideologies are very similar, except for a small detail which made them quite incompatible despite their similarities.

[rdb3]

Using your interpretation that Socialists always go on the left, where does that put "Libertarian Socialists" (those anarcho-utopian-socialist types)?

Ha! "Libertarian Socialists" is an oxymoron. Those two words are mutually exclusive (and, no, I'm not a Libertarian).

Be that as it may, these types are on the Left.

Also, communists and socialists are both on the Left. They have not always agreed with one another, but both are way over on the Left side.

[SauronOfMordor]

The point is there are extremes on both sides of the major political spectrum and the Nazi movement was very much associated with the extreme right. I really don't know why acknowledging that would be such a problem, unless someone would identify with such beliefs.

The definition problem arises when you let Communists make the definitions

For many decades, "The Left" was defined as "the people who support the USSR", and "The Right" as "the people who oppose the USSR". So you get Libertarians, Jeffersonian Republicans, and National Socialists being labeled as being "the same".

Hitler and Stalin had the exact same philosophy: total government control of all aspects of life. Hitler and Stalin only differed in WHO WAS TO BE IN CHARGE. That was their only real difference. Hitler thought that Aryans were geneticly superior, and Stalin thought that the proletariat were superior. Hitler got his main support from the clerical workers, Stalin from the assembly-line workers

But once their systems had been in place for a couple of generations, it would have been hard to distinguish them

The author of the article has a different definition of Right and Left, as he lays out. People who are in favor of total government control are on the Left, and people who want minimal government control are on the Right. So, going from Left to Right, we have Stalin, Mao, Pol-Pot at the extreme Left; Hitler & Mussolini not so far to the Left; Welfare Statists to the moderate Left; Ronald Reagan to the moderate Right; Libertarians or various flavors further to the Right; and radical anarchists to the extreme Right

[Int]

The ideologies are very similar...

I agree. However we try to understand or classify Extremism we can only recognise it for what it is.

[the gillman@blacklagoon.com]

Using your interpretation that Socialists always go on the left, where does that put "Libertarian Socialists" (those anarcho-utopian-socialist types)?

Simple, they're socialists. They are also liars who are publicly denying their true agenda, which is the ridiulous vision of global socialism. Granted, a great many of them are useful idiots who simply have no clue.

I am probably the most right wing in this forum. I have no use for any government at all. That's anarchy, the real right wing.

[SauronOfMordor]

Also there's that distinction about private property. Socialists/Communists want(ed) to totally get rid of it. Nazis didn't.

Correct. The National Socialists were a more moderate version of the Communists. They were less fanatical about the abolition of private property, and the National Socialists killed somewhat less people than the Communists

If you subtracted Hitler's anti-Jewish position from the rest of his platform, most Leftists on FR would probably have voted for him.

[supercat]

Granted, a great many of them are useful idiots who simply have no clue.

If you recognize people in three classes:

1. Those who want to let others take care of (and control) them.
2. Those who want to control their own lives.
3. Those who want to control others.

then many things will start to make sense. Today's "left" is an alliance of #1 and #3; the people in group #3 want to keep others in group #1. Recognize that, and it will become quite clear why "the party that cares about the poor" [Democrats] has the richest donors.

[the gillman@blacklagoon.com]

True, and the one both of the others hates to death is #2, the ones who only want to control their own lives.

I can at least imagine why some weaklings want to be nannied, but I have never understood why anyone would want to run someone else's life. Don't they have anything of their own to do?

[SauronOfMordor]

if we really had the kind of people we need to get a working communism, we could take any other form of government and it would work brilliantly, too.

If all men were angels, any sort of government would be workable -- I forget who first said it

What distinguished the Founders of the US, was their recognition that any position that wields power, will be lusted after by the power-mad. The only solution is to greatly limit the power of government, so as to limit the damage that the power-mad can cause

In the last 90 years, we've forgotten that important point

[SauronOfMordor]

I can at least imagine why some weaklings want to be nannied, but I have never understood why anyone would want to run someone else's life. Don't they have anything of their own to do?

Power is essentially the ability to punish those who annoy you. Some people have a big thing on being able to whack anybody who "disses" them. This has implications on where the next batch of Storm Troopers will be recruited from.

[moneyrunner]

”hitler was made by the big money like krupp.”

My reading of German history recounts that Hitler was recruited by the German Army to infiltrate and spy on the early version of the Nazis. He did that, found he liked it, was good as a speaker and became its leader.

Over time he attracted both backing and money from numerous sources. Many Germans supported Hitler because he was strongly nationalistic and fought pitched battles with Spartacists who eventually became the Communists.

In the turmoil that followed WW 1, Germans were disenchanted with the Weimar Republic which created hyperinflation, vast unemployment and was blamed for enforcing the Treaty of Versailles. Bringing Hitler into the government was supposed to calm the German troubles.

Tragically wrong. But Germany of the 1920s and 1930s was a tragedy in the making. Nobody created Hitler except Hitler (with the unwitting help of the French and their stupid determination to make Germany pay for past humiliation). Never underestimate the stupidity of European politicians.

[Constitutional Patriot]

"Nationalism" was a tool used by Hitler to unite his people against a common enemy. If he gave a damn about the fate of Germany, he would have surrendered earlier.

[maestro]

Your# 18).......... the nazis were neither national nor socialist. did you know that when the war was lost, hitler gave the 'nero' order? that meant destroying all industry and blowing up the mines to leave nothing to the enemy. and he ordered the whole population to kill themselves because 'who does not win is not worthy'. he was not anything more than a madman playing chess, just like stalin.

WRONG: Hitler was both a NATIONALIST and a SOCIALIST...!
He was a an EVOLUTIONIST-RACIST-ELITIST-UPPERMENCHIN-SOCIALIST holding a DARWINIST WORLDVIEW (Survival of the fitist among socialist worldviews)!
THE "real" ENEMY in his worldview was Soviet/International/Socialisms! THE "real" ENEMY was the Soviet Socialists at the Gate!!!
(America & Britain were to him NOT the "real" enemy! They were merely 'dupes' of the Internationalist Planners!
He knew the Soviet-Socialists were 'at the gate' and THAT is the ONLY REASON that he ORDERED THE "NERO" order!!!

To him, the Phoenix , then, would 'rise' again!

Socialism's Marxist/Fascism/National-Internationalism is still, "THE GOLDEN EVIL EMPIRE"!
(Now, not YET again, an 'Iron Curtain', but the fantacy/promise of a "Golden Curtain" believed only by the truely "Media-Brainwashed".

(The "Golden Curtain's" very own International Worker's UNION and Peoples' Party 'collective' slave prison.)
(be sure to pick a 'good' number, "Work Makes Free".)

/Sarcasm

[maestro]

Your# 8................BTTT