Vatican's muffled voice

Boston Globe ^ | April 25, 2002

[My Identity]

HE STATEMENTS issued yesterday at the Vatican provided incomplete advice to US bishops as they devise a policy regarding sexually abusive priests. These were very much documents written within the clerical culture, and they failed to address the crisis of confidence among the laity that is most acutely expressed in the Boston Archdiocese.

[HiTech RedNeck]

Will he still be a Cardinal, and if so, of what? Of Rome? That would be an odd-sounding "demotion." More like getting kicked upstairs.

[sinkspur]

Most of our chancery offices have been taken over by the laity already and the bishops have let them. That accounts for many of the problems in today's Church here in America.

You have a naive trust in the instincts and judgment of the clergy. IMO, there aren't ENOUGH lay people in responsible positions in the Church.

[Renatus]

Even if that turns out to be the only way to keep it from getting up to its ears in slime?

Yep. But that is not the only way. Remember the Holy Spirit is protecting Christ's Church.

[sinkspur]

But that is not the only way. Remember the Holy Spirit is protecting Christ's Church.

The Holy Spirit still allows stupid men to do stupid things, and the Catholic Hierarchy have pulled some colossal boners over the years, the latest cover-up scandal being one of them.

[HiTech RedNeck]

If the bishops don't get some outside advice on handling these pederasts

I'm not sure it's advice they lack. Perhaps something more akin to guts? The public confidence is suffering. If they really and truly believe their organization is the only valid one to evangelize the world for Jesus Christ (which as one of those horrible 'hell-bound' Protestants I don't believe, but for the sake of argument), they ought to care about public confidence if they think that Jesus Christ cares about the world. "Keep your behavior excellent among the Gentiles...."

[HiTech RedNeck]

The Holy Spirit sure seems to be using some new door knockers lately.

[Renatus]

You have a naive trust in the instincts and judgment of the clergy.

Not naive. The bishop is called by Christ to rule. The layman is not. Our Holy Father said it very clearly just recently. He said that the priest and bishop is CONFIGURED with Christ as Master, Shepherd, Priest and Spouse. It is my conviction that he is speaking the truth. Much of the problem in the Church is the attempt by the laity to take over the power to rule. It must not happen.

[sinkspur]

They do lack guts, there's no doubt.

But there is still a clericalism in the Catholic Church (and is exemplified by Renatus on this thread) that believes that lay people don't know anything, are not to be trusted, and their counsel cannot be as wise as one who has spent years in a seminary.

You'd be surprised at how prevalent that attitude still is in our Church. It no doubt exists in other Churches as well.

[Renatus]

The Holy Spirit still allows stupid men to do stupid things, and the Catholic Hierarchy have pulled some colossal boners over the years, the latest cover-up scandal being one of them

I agree.

[sinkspur]

Much of the problem in the Church is the attempt by the laity to take over the power to rule.

I disagree. If laity had had any role in the present priestly pederast scandal, you can bet the bishops would be blaming the hell out of them.

Bishops are doing such a fine job, aren't they?

[Unam Sanctam]

Why don't you go join a congregational church, since you hate the Catholic faith and the structure of its clergy so much? We live in a free society with freedom of religion. If you don't believe in what the Catholic Church teaches, including apostolic succession, then no one is stopping you from going to a religion more in accord with your tastes and predilections.

[Renatus]

But there is still a clericalism in the Catholic Church (and is exemplified by Renatus on this thread) that believes that lay people don't know anything, are not to be trusted, and their counsel cannot be as wise as one who has spent years in a seminary.

Not true. There is a vast difference between seeking advice and counsel and ruling. Cardinal Law got advice from psychologists and psychiatrists and look where it got him. And another thing: the most blatant form of clericalism is lay people taking over the responsibility that belongs solely to the bishops thinking that is their right.

[HiTech RedNeck]

It no doubt exists in other Churches as well.

I wonder if the Orthodox are also having problems with this. I would expect Protestants to be both organizationally and procedurally less prone to the problem because their personal-faith-centered (rather than clergy-centered) philosophy means that dissatisfied congregants don't worry that they will lose their salvation by walking out on slimy pastors -- and because they have fewer rituals that get the clergy alone with children.

[ELS]

Cardinal LAW is out.......Reassigned to Rome by June 1st..

What is your source for that information?

[HiTech RedNeck]

Cardinal Law got advice from psychologists and psychiatrists and look where it got him.

I think even that betrayed a kind of misguided elitist attitude. Most pshrinks, far from being wise experts about the matter, have a very laissez-faire attitude towards sexual abominations. I personally know the case of a few and the damage they enabled to the trusting, and sometimes I feel that they ought to be hanged. But not all pshrinks are like that. Maybe if he had surfed over to http://www.narth.com he would be smelling more like a rose today.

[Merovingian]

FOX News...I believe they referenced the Boston Herald..Here is a post on the topic:

Here

[sinkspur]

If you don't believe in what the Catholic Church teaches, including apostolic succession, then no one is stopping you from going to a religion more in accord with your tastes and predilections.

No, I think I'll stay and try to rid the Church of people like you, who think everything that has to do with the Catholic Church is a matter of faith, or that "apostolic succession" has anything to do with who handles administrative duties in a chancery office.

It took a secular institution like the Boston Globe to finally blow the whistle on the insular Boston Archdiocese to flush out the massive corruption there.

Why don't you go join a congregational church, since you hate the Catholic faith and the structure of its clergy so much?

You guys who act like you own the Church will not tell those of us who know we don't to leave. If I hated the Catholic Faith, I would have left a long time ago.

Why don't you point out to me where something I've said indicated that I "hate" the Faith? Or do you just want to silence all dissent, no matter how trivial?

[RobbyS]

Nor was there any mention of the calls for greater openness coming from many lay people and priests. Instead, the communique focused on the need to keep close watch on the seminaries and on ''individuals who spread dissent and groups which advance ambiguous approaches to pastoral care.''

Is the Globe beguinning to see that all this may backfire on their gay/liberal allies in the Church?

[ELS]

Thanks.

[RobbyS]

Its high leadership has apparently seen immense amouts of slime and sleaze And also "immense amounts" of sancity and high purpose. The Church of Rome has had a high pubic profile aincwe the time of Constantine, and historians as well as journalists-- like a good story--sex, sedition and simony--better than the good stuff. Piety is boring. Which is most likely to make the Papers: Pastor Peter Goodall retired from Grace Lutheran after thirty years of unblemished service. Or TVevangelist Sam Slick caught having sex with his secretary in the backseat of his limo. No, the big story here is not official cover-up. but the consequences of "normalizing" gay-sex and letting libidos run free, the equivalent of unregulated prostitution in papal Rome in Luther's time.