Bronze Stars -- Wait due to 'Canadian protocol'

National Post (Toronto) ^ | April 23, 2002 | Michael Smith and Chris Wattie

[general_re]

Mmmm. I may have conflated the two incidents described:

By daylight, after coming under enemy machine-gun fire, he managed to ease his rifle barrel between two rocks and quickly located an enemy sniper hiding behind a small piece of corrugated steel between two trees. He guessed the distance at 1,700 metres and fired one shot through the metal, killing the man instantly.

That certainly suggests that he was under fire for that one. In any case, if he were under fire for the second shot, it does not necessarily mean that it was an enemy infantryman firing back - it could have been another sniper, or perhaps mortar fire, or the like. Nevertheless, it's still a hell of a shot, regardless of the exact conditions. I know I certainly couldn't duplicate it - could you? :^)

[patent]

>>>I know I certainly couldn't duplicate it - could you? :^)

Change it to 2400 inches and maybe. I didn't see the part on the machine gun fire at 1700. Anway, I was just curious if there was a sniper duel sort of thing here, which would make the shot all the more incredible. I didn't see any info. on that in the article, but thought you might have seem something I didn't.

patent

[in the Arena]

Here's ballistic data for a specific round...obviously environment conditions and bullet data are more than likely different from the specific Canadian event.

Worth looking at for reference...at 2500 yards there's a 2460 inch drop or just around 100 MOA...a Loopy Mark 4 M3 has 72 MOA adjustment and not all of that up...I'm not sure what the Canucks are using...

Tom Miller's Extreme Firearms -Ballistics for the Windrunner

	Ballistics for the .50 BMG
	The following information was given to Tom S. Miller by Mr. Skip Talbot, FCSA consultant, regarding the ballistics of the .50 BMG cartridge. This information reprinted with permission from Sierra Bullets Infinity Exterior Ballistics Software. Copyright 1999 Sierra Bullets LLC All Rights Reserved. Atmospheric Conditions Humidity=50% Temperature=45 degrees Fahrenheit Wind Velocity=1 mph @ 3:00 (full value wind) Elevation=5000 feet above sea level Cartridge .50 BMG 800 grain LRS solid projectile (Similar to Barnes 800 grain borerider) ballistic coefficient=1.095 muzzle velocity=2650 fps rifle zeroed @ 200 yards @ 1000 yards velocity=2015 fps energy=7200 ft. lbs. drop=236 inches wind drift=2.93 inches time of flight=1.298 seconds @1750 yards velocity=1630 fps energy=4720 ft. lbs. drop=892 inches wind drift=9.39 inches time of flight=2.458 seconds @2000 yards velocity=1482 fps energy=3900 ft. lbs. drop=1355 inches wind drift=13.6 inches time of flight=3.037 seconds @2500 yards velocity=1266 fps energy=2849 ft. lbs. drop=2460 inches wind drift=23 inches time of flight=4.135 seconds @2800 yards velocity=1159 fps (projectile becomes sub-sonic) energy=2387 ft. lbs. drop=3375 inches wind drift=30.15 inches time of flight=4.88 seconds Information about the Velocity of Sound at different air temperatures 32 degrees F.=1088 fps 68 degrees F.=1129 fps 212 degrees F.=1266 fps 932 degrees F.=1814 fps
Home of the Windrunner XM107 .50 BMG Tactical Take Down Rifle. Please Note: All State & Federal Laws apply to all purchases. Home Page | Products | Order | Photos | Links | Contact Us

Copyright © 2001 Hyacinth Software

[wardaddy]

If he was already zeroed at 1000 meters then he would have a bit less guessing wouldn't he?

I confess.....I've never shot anything living at over 400 yards (243 Mannlicher...3X9 Leupold). And 400 yards was rare. I know from reading Hatchcock's writings that he would pick out an NVA/VC in a line of troopers and aim at the one maybe two folks ahead of the guy or gal he wanted. But that was at 800-1000 yards with 7.62 BDL. I have no business talking about such long shooting, I might as well be talking about nuclear physics or labor pains...LOL

Regards.

[wardaddy]

My Mannlicher was zeroed at 100 yards. West Central TX whitetails....standing or grazing and me at rest. I aimed maybe 8-12 inches above the shoulders and hit the lower lungs. Anything past 4-500 yards even stationary is brave new world for me....but I aim to try it out someday.

[in the Arena]

I think it's do-able. The wind is what messes me up at those ranges... My 67 year old father took a Mule deer at just over 400 yards last fall...he did it without a fancy rifle or fancy optics...he told me he relied on "years of hunting experience...read the mirage...smelled the wind" etc...it wasn't until later I learned he took 3 shots to get on target... :O) He laughs everytime I show up with all the hightech gear...

[xsrdx]

I think it's do-able.

Certainly the cartridge is capable, but jiminy how accurate would the gun have to be to get into a torso 24" wide at 2400yd reliably? If 1 MOA is 1" at 100yd, thats 24" at 2400yd- the absolute limit of the guns inherent accuracy, assuming its not equipped with heat seeking projectiles of some sort.

That means on a perfect day, with no wind, elevation or atmospheric issues, from a rock solid mechanical rest, the best you could expect would be a hit within a 24" circle at that range, assuming 1 moa accuracy which is pretty stinkin good for any rifle under combat conditions. Add some wind, or a less than perfect rest, or even a single click error - 1/4 moa at 2500 yards is 6", let alone the M3's 3/4 MOA adjustments, which would put you 19" off target PER CLICK - and you've missed.

Not just a tough shot, but nearly miraculous, especially considering the preparation it would take to know WHERE YOUR GUN SHOOTS AT 2430 yards in that specific environment....I'd be curious what a guy like Talbot thinks, or David Tubb, about this shot if the reporting is accurate.

I've looked through powerful rifle optics at objects over 1Km distant, and man sized objects at those ranges are EXCEEDINGLY hard to spot, let alone hit.

WOW is a pretty good summation.

[Slam]

Question. How would the density altitude affect the ballistics? the solution?

IOW would altitude play much a part here? thanks

[in the Arena]

I think it's do-able.

Ha, I was commenting on the deer shot at over 400 yards mentioned by wardaddy... A shot on a human target at 2400 is beyond my capabilities...

Although...Carlos Hathcock made a >2000 yard shot using a modified M2...of course he had aiming stakes and travers/elevation equipment on the M2 to improve the odds...

Wow works for me...

Incidently, shortly after joining the conversations on FR I went off on Travis concerning the abilities of a .50 at 2000+ yards on a moving target...that post sounded quite a bit like yours and gave me a chuckle...

take care,

Jim

[Heyworth]

While there have been lots of US soldiers getting foreign medals over the years (Sgt.. York, Audie Murphy), the restrictions have been pretty tight, in general. http://foxfall.com/fm-index.htm

[Travis McGee]

Well I know for a fact that a .50 can take out a tank at a mile.

Peter Jennings reported it, so it must be true.

[Squantos]

NO !.....Mirage would be such a monster at that range one is just wasting ammo IMHO. I shot a barrett for a living in military EOD teams and used a fixed power 16X swarovski with eliptical mil-dot's........albeit a Burris 36X BR was also issued on some rifles also .......The 16X was the best power in my experience for large and small targets that a BMG cartridge can and should be employed on a living target aka 18 inch torso/brisket at extream 400 to 1400 meter ranges.

Just my opinion of course.....

Stay Safe !

[xsrdx]

The 16X was the best power in my experience for large and small targets that a BMG cartridge can and should be employed on a living target aka 18 inch torso/brisket at extream 400 to 1400 meter ranges

Absolutely, and that jibes with my limited experience as well- you can't just add magnification to a rifle sized tube, or you get too much distortion. 14-16x is about it if you expect to be able to hit anything.

And my expectation would be that 1500m or so is a pretty solid upper range limit for consistent hits on a human sized target, any further and environmental factors, along with limits to mechanical accuracy, become impossibly hard to adjust for.

A one shot kill at 2400m with any gun that weighs less than a ton seems about as likely as a 400yd hole in one.

[xsrdx]

IOW would altitude play much a part here? thanks

Since bullets are unpowered, they are entirely subject to the effects of drag, and gravity. Gravity doesn't change much, as long as you stay on earth.

Drag, or the resistance imparted by air on the projectile, changes considerably with a number of factors, including air density, which can in turn be affected by both altitude and temperature. Denser air creates more drag, thus bullets will lose elevation faster. High altitude air imparts less drag due to its relatively lower density, and bullets lose elevation less rapidly.

Same reason footballs and baseballs fly farther at higher altitudes - the same velocity results in increased range, because drag is reduced and the projectile gets further downrange before it hits the ground.

Precision marksman can't just grab their rifles, zeroed and checked out at sea level, and expect them to shoot to the same point of aim at 10,000 ft, because the bullets will not have the same flight path at that altitude.

Thus the preparation comment, for this to have been successful, the shooter had to have some idea where his gun would shoot at that range, either through practice at similar ranges at that altitude, or he may have had an observer or target marker somehow "walk him in" to the target, another tough sell but not impossible.

We're assuming this was a classic "Sniper" engagement - the team infiltrates into position, waits for a target, engages it, and exfils, which was almost certainly not the case here.

This sniper must have had some time to adjust into the target area and get plenty of feedback on where he was hitting, before the target arrived.

[Slam]

Thank you.

[Squantos]

Yeah I live just a short distance from the Adobe Walls site where Billy Dixon made his famous long range shot at 1538 yards on a Comanche, Cheyenne, or Kiowa warrior with a .50-90 or 50-70 sharps (alledgedly :o). The distance was confirmed by a team of US army surveyors weeks later.........

Stay Safe !

[wardaddy]

thanx....if you have time and care to freepmail me some specific suggestions I'd be grateful.

[Demosthenes]

I didn't say that his shot was 5 miles, I was saying that those guns can shoot that far.

[ItisaReligionofPeace]

oh, I see.

[lucky7mm]

You do know of course that the Princess Pats train in Alberta, Canada?
These guys do their high altitude training in the mountainous regions between the provinces of Alberta and British Columbia.
They also do cold-weather warfare in January, take snow-showers at -40 degress Celsius, train regularly with the Canadian Rangers north of 60 and ...
The Canadian Military, has various soldiering regiments who specialize in various extremes of weather.
Just like the Canadian Navy, searches out storms to train in, so do the Infantry Battalions. Check out a map of Canada, and cross link www.dnd.ca units to that map, and you'll see why Canada specializes in extreme weather operations. Cheers Aye