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All of these quotes must be viewed in their proper context and with an eye towards how they were viewed by or founding fathers.

Hobbes and Machivelli.

I love the Founders Quotes, I have them handy in hardcopy form. I think, though, that I'll continue to slam Hobbes, I tried to show that those quotes were not only over-generalizations, but also over-simplistic and fundamentally flawed.

Let's see if another round is more successful:
Competition of riches, honour, command, or other power, inclineth to contention, enmity, and war: because the way of one competitor, to the attaining of his desire, is to kill, subdue, supplant, or repel the other. - Thomas Hobbes, Leviathan, 1651.

This broad condemnation of capitalistic systems if diametrically opposed to the actual case. Especially when it comes to competition of riches, Hobbes fails to see that this is a process for the best use of limited resources for the minimum cost in all cases. In the attainment of one's desire, it requires cooperation, communication, an agreeement of equity, and general goodwill. Without possessing these abstracts in a functional manner, one cannot compete effectively in a free market.

The source of every crime, is some defect of the understanding; or some error in reasoning; or some sudden force of the passions. - Thomas Hobbes, Leviathan. 1651.

Low crime may perhaps be these things, but High crimes quite often are not, these crimes consist of attempts to accumulate personal and complete power over one's fellow man. The reasoning if often sound, the understanding is malicious, and the passion has been tempered by years of following this ambition.

I am about to take my last voyage, a great leap in the dark. - Thomas Hobbes.

There is a God, and there is Life after Death.

In a democracy, the whole assembly cannot fail unless the multitude that are to be governed fail. - Thomas Hobbes, Leviathan, 1651.

A Democracy is always a failure. Masses of people are easily mislead or swayed by a charismatic leader. The old cliche that democracy is nothing more than two wolves and a sheep voting on what to eat for dinner. Democracy is no panacea for Mankind's inherent fallibility, but only limiting Mankind's power over another through government can minimize the harm one does to another using government.

If any two men desire the same thing, which nevertheless they cannot both enjoy, they become enemies; and on the way to their end, which is principally their own conservation, and sometimes their dedication only, endeavor to destroy or subdue one another. - Thomas Hobbes, Leviathan, 1651.

To imitate one’s enemy is to dishonor. - Thomas Hobbes, Leviathan, 1651.

No two men both become enemies, any reasonable men find equity through commerce, neither is subdued or destroyed in this manner. There is no dishonor in imitating an honorable enemy and a great deal of good can come of it. Imagine if Japan and Germany had believed this fallacy? They did not and are now among members of G-7, the rest of the world should pray to be conquored to "suffer" this result "dishonorably" according to Hobbes.

There is much much more. If Hobbes were drawn upon rather than Locke, than I rather understand why and how the Federalists were so very very wrong in their push for improved power within the Constitution. The Anti-Federalists had the correct understanding of the Constitution and should have been heeded.

Let's see if another round is more successful

I fail to understand what it is that you think you are trying to convince me of. Slam Hobbes all you want - it bothers me not a bit, nor is it in the least bit relevent to the reasons I stated for making the post.

The members of the Constituional Conventions drew upon the works of all those I have posted; Hobbes, Rouseau, Locke, Hume, Aristotle, Machiavelli, and many more I have not yet posted, but will in time. They drew from each of them, some more than others, in the creation of our form of government and its checks and balances.

To fully understand how our founders came to the conclusions they did, and why it is to our peril to forget those conclusions, we need to know where those ideas came from. The fact that you dislike Hobbes and feel that everything he said is wrong, does not negate the influence of Leviathan on political thought in their time.

You seem to have completely missed the point of why I posted the quotes, even after I explained it to you. I'm not trying to be snotty here, because you are obviously intelligent, but I just don't understand the point of you ripping Hobbes as if you need to convince me of something Or have I missed some point of yours?). The quotes were not posted with intention of convincing people that Hobbes was the greatest thing since sliced bread. He's not. But he is worth taking a look at. Just as it is worth reading Marx or Hilter for the purpose of understanding why their writings influenced so many - to the detriment of the world. That's called education.