Posted on 04/20/2002 11:13:03 AM PDT by Romulus
Lapide deals with events in Slovakia in pages 138-149 of Three Popes and the Jews. His account begins with Slovakia’s adoption of the anti-Jewish Nuremburg Race Laws on September 9, 1941 -- and the objection thereto by the papal nuncio in Bratislava, who just two days later complained in person to the Slovak president of “the injustice of these ordinances.” On October 7, the Slovak Catholic bishops delivered a collective protest to Fr. Josef Tise, the Slovak president, in which they stated that “the so-called Jewish Code violates natural law and the liberty of individual conscience.” The Holy See followed through with a complaint delivered to the Slovak ambassador on November 12. Because this complaint was unsuccessful in preventing a deportation of 52,000 Slovak Jews in March, 1942, the Vatican submitted a second protest on March 14: “His Holiness’s Secretariat of State trusts that such painful and unjust measures against persons belonging to the Hebrew race cannot be approved by a government that is proud of its Catholic heritage...The Holy See would...neglect its Divine mandate if it would not deplore these enactments and measures, which gravely hurt the natural rights of persons, merely because of their race.”
Lapide’s Slovak account concludes by reporting that “Dr. Livia Rotkirchen, authoress of the standard work on this sad chapter in Eurpean history, and on the senior research staff at Yad Vashem in Jerusalem, writes: ‘ In conclusion it may be said that the six letters of protest delivered by the Vatican during the years 1941-44 prove sufficiently that the Vatican objected to the deportation of Jews from Slovakia.’...these six official papal protests do not include the numerous oral intercessions on behalf of Jews undertaken by the Holy See during the years of persecution.”
Lapide goes on to report the conclusions of Leon Poliakov: “The cessation of the deportations of Jews from Slovakia in the summer of 1942 -- and consequently the survival of nearly twenty-five percent of the Slovakian Jews -- must be attributed to Vatican pressure on Monsignor Tiso.”
By the same token, Pius XII, confronted with a moral outrage, which his letters of protest clearly indicate, did nothing but run his mouth.
As opposed to what? Order the Papal Air Force to bomb Bratislava?
The notion that his pressure saved the approximately 25% of Slovak Jews is a ludicrous one. In neighboring Bohemia and Moravia, which were incorporated directly into the Reich as the Protectorate, only 66% died.
Those are lovely statistics, but they're utterly irrelevant. Pius deserves to be judged by his good faith efforts. If they bear fruit (as they did in Italy, where very few Jews were deported) well and good, but if he proved powerless to control other events, how is that his fault?
Pope Pius XII's performance just doesn't cut it. Slovakia was ruled by a prelate who shipped Jews to the gas chambers with a relish and an efficiency rarely matched in German-occupied territory. The Pope's response was a few angry letters. No demand that Tiso come to Rome for 'consultation'.
Don't be obtuse. As the Slovak president, Tiso was the head of state. Popes do not "summon" heads of state to the Vatican to be spanked like naughty boys. Moreover, if he had considered himself subject to ecclesiastical obedience, he'd have halted the deportations what urgently requested to do so. The fact that he chose collaboration instead shows how little he cared for his priestly duty. As disobedient priest, he would have refused a summons; and as head of state he should have. Your suggestion that Pius somehow had the power to compel Tiso's compliance is, to be charitable, stupid.
First you blame Pius for silence; now you complain he was running his mouth. Your bottom line is that you want to blame Pius for what other people did. This is stark character assassination and Catholic bashing.
He may have had the right; certainly he did not have the power. No one believes Tiso would have obeyed. And even if he had, would the Jews have been better off, seeing a vaccillating and devious Tiso replaced by a passionate, dedicated Jew-hunter?
Look. The war was a dreadful time, and terrible things were happening. The Vatican was looking for cooperation wherever it could get it -- sometimes from some pretty shady characters. Under such circumstances, it doesn't pay to be too particular. With thousands of lives hanging in the balance, what's more important -- playing up to Tiso in the hope that he might deliver, or preserving the precious honor of the Church by ordering Tiso cast into the outer darkness? (Upon which he would have laughed, btw, making the Vatican appear pathetic and powerless at just the time when it had no weapon other than its prestige and moral authority.)
You win some, you lose some. If the point of the game is saving human lives, you concentrate on that game and not let yourself be distracted by futile gestures and worries about what historians will make of your precious honor. Fretting over your legacy is for Clintons, not Pacellis.
1. You're an ardent Catholic apologist, so I assume, naturally, that you believe in God. Do you also believe there is a very powerful being called Satan who is very real, and very much at work in the world today, as well as throughout human history?
2. Clearly, no race of people on the earth are more universally hated and despised than the Jews. With the exception of the USA they are hated by virtually every other country and society on earth. Do you believe that this is just coincidence, or "the way things just worked out", or do you believe anti-semitism is Satanic in origin and nature?
3. If so, why do you believe Satan is desperately trying to wipe out the Jewish race? What's in it for Satan to wipe Israel off the map and/or kill the Jewish Race? Why (in your opinion) does Satan seem to expend so much of his energies to that end?
Well, Pius XIIth would disagree with you, because he certainly did everything in his power to PREVENT the re-birth of Israel in their Biblical homeland; even if it meant aligning himself with the Muslim world to do so!
I believe it's literally an descent into magic to suppose that we have the power to conjure Christ's appearance.
I agree!! And likewise it is a decent into black magic for one little man to believe that he had the power to PREVENT the Sovereign God from doing what His will with Israel!
The fact is... Pius' desires were swept aside and Israel WAS re-born! Now, what caused that? Was it just a case of the boys at the UN "putting one over" on God? Or do you believe, as your note seems to suggest, that although "God knows and cares about every sparrow that falls to the ground", He is curiously indifferent about the re-birth of Biblical Israel?
So which is it? Do you believe that God "placed it on Pope Pius XXIIth's heart, (His "vicar on earth") to oppose the re-creation of Israel, but that God was "OVERRULED" by the boys at the UN? Or do you believe that Pius just took it upon himself to oppose the Rebirth of Israel, WITHOUT bothering to consult with God?
The Catholic Church is dead wrong about a whole host of things. Once upon a time, they tried to brainwash people that "eating meat on Friday" was a sin that God would send people to everlasting Hell for. Now they take it back.
One only has to read today's headlines to see that the Roman Catholic Church is frequently... er... shall we say... "confused"!
And oh yeah -- the Church never said that it was the eating of meat that was sinful. Nor did the Church ever specify a penalty for doing so. Abstention from meat was a pennance, which all obedient Catholics were required to perform. The sin was one of disobedience and pride, for refusing the pennance.
Well in 1st John chpt 5, we are told...
14 And we can be confident that he (GOD) will listen to us whenever we ask him for anything in line with his will. 15 And if we know he is listening when we make our requests, we can be sure that he will give us what we ask for
If God promises this to you and me, He would CERTAINLY promise this to the man who represents himself as "Christ's Vicar on Earth" -- the Pope, right? And if a Pope was going to intrude himself into an issue regarding Israel, the subject of 90% of the Holy Bible, Pius XII would be mega-derelict in his duties if he didn't pray intensely and diligently to God beforehand about it, right?
Then my question is, when Pope Pius XII went on record as opposing the re-creation of Israel in it's Biblical homeland, WAS HIS REQUEST IN LINE WITH GOD'S WILL? Obviously NOT, because he didn't get his wish! Israel was reborn! Right where God spoke to Abraham thousands of years ago!
Therefore, what conclusion can you draw but that it was GOD'S WILL that Israel be reborn in the Biblical Homeland that He gave to Abraham FOREVER! Shouldn't this reversal have been a red-flag to the "theologeons" at the Vatican re: dispensationalism?
"The state of Israel has been nothing but a perpetual holocaust for the Jewish people".
Is simply beyond preposterous. When modern Israel was created, the Jews had just gone through an event called "The Holocaust". SIX MILLION Jews were slaughtered at the hands of a supposedly civilized Western European Nation. Since the creation of the Jewish state, how many of them have ACTUALLY died violently? What percentage of population?
Israel is a free democratic land. Not ONE JEW is forced to live in Israel against their will. On the contrary, MILLIONS of them freely and voluntarily MIGRATED to Israel where they proudly live, raise their families, and fight for the land they LOVE. Are you actually suggesting that Israelis wish some catholic pope could have imposed HIS will on THEIR destiny?
Regarding exegesis, I call your attention again to the prophesy in Zechariah 12. Let's patiently go over it again, as I did in note # 55...
God says that on THAT day (in the FUTURE, Chuck -- we're dealing with Prophesy, remember) on THAT day, He would "make Jerusalem a heavy stone, a burden for the world.
The prophesy was given to Zechariah in 480 BC -- Jerusalem was destoyed in 70 AD. Jerusalem was never "a burden for the world" in that time frame. BUT IT IS TODAY.
Later, in the same prophesy, God says...
"Then (in the future) I will pour out (future tense) a spirit of grace and prayer on the family of David and on all the people of Jerusalem. They will look on me whom they have pierced and mourn for him as for an only son.
When did the people of Jerusalem "pierce ME" (God)? That would be Jesus, right Chuck? Notice "have piercED. PAST tense. POST 32 AD. God prophesies that ALL the people of Jerusalem would mourn for the One whom they PIERCED. When has that happened? It hasn't happened YET, right? And it CERTAINLY didn't happen between 32 AD when Christ was crucified, and 70 AD, when Jerusalem was destroyed. (And the vast majority of Jews rejected Christ and murdered His Apostles.)
So, what other logic can you derive from this, than God is prophesying a Jerusalem in the FUTURE, after the Curcifixion and Resurrection, which does NOT fit the Jerusalem of 32-70 AD. When God says something, you can't just good-naturedly shrug it off. God wants us to seek the meaning of His words.
But Pius XXII wanted Jerusalem to stay in the hands of ARABS. Pius XXII wanted the Jews to go to some piece of ground that had no Biblical historical relevance to them or God, and leave Jerusalem in the hands of MUSLIMS. ISLAM. The KORAN. If Pius had gotten his way, can you imagine how the Muslims would have danced in the streets? Saying "Allah has triumphed over the "god" of the Jews!"
I cannot help but assume that Pius was well aware of this prophesy in Zechariah. You may say that he had a different interpretation. But the words are clear enough that he had to at least TAKE INTO CONSIDERATION that the Prophesy was about a modern-day Israel/Jerusalem. Okay... before Pius went on record opposing the creation of Israel, (an event which he had to admit, at least had THE POTENTIAL to be a fulfillment of God's Holy Word, as given to Zechariah) did he pray about it? If so, did God first give him the go-ahead to oppose Israel, then DOUBLE-CROSS him?
Or did Pius just brazenly stick his nose into another people's destiny without even bothering to consult God, or His Holy Word? Or was there yet another motivation?
1. If the pope opposes the legalization of abortion,and abortion is legalized, is the pope "thwarting the will of God"?
2. Was the interpretation of Zechariah, the one that you believe, a traditional interpretation? Did it originate before the state of Israel was created? Or did it originate after Jack Van Impe hit the airwaves? Or did it gain popularity after the Mossad began infiltrating the fundamentalist churches of the deep south?
3. Are you aware that not all Jews are Zionists?
Of course not. In Matthew 24 Jesus said that in the latter days...
12 Sin will be rampant everywhere, and the love of many will grow cold.
We're not talking about sins, like abortion and murder, which are always with us, we (at least ME) are talking about a specific prophecy, given by God to a man named Zechariah, a recognized prophet of God, about the City of Jerusalem in a certain time-frame.
RE: your Q #2. Yes most definitely it has been a long time view of Christians long before modern Israel. Today we talk about a coming One World government, and One-World religion not becaise they HAVE happened, but because of what we read in prophesy. We believe that the Temple will be built right on the Temple Mount, because of the prophesies in Revelation.
I've vaguely heard of Jack Van Imp. I infer that he's a Christian TV personality that you don't like... but I've never read anything he;s written. Whether Jews are zionists or not is irrelevant to prophesy.
Now, Chuck, I've lavished much, much, time and effort on answering you to the best of my ability. Now YOU must answer me, without resorting to ad hominim attacks on "Proddies" or "Jack Van Imp" or "zionists"...
In the prophesy of Zechariah 12, written 480 BC, where God says of "ALL the people of Jerusalem"...
They will look on me whom they have pierced and mourn for him as for an only son.
Who do YOU say God is referring to there?
Just answer that, then we'll move on to the next quetsion...
Incidently, Zechariah's prophecies have already occurred; in about 175 BC, when Antiochus the Illustrious reigned in Syria.
3. On that day I will make Jerusalem a heavy stone, a burden for the WORLD. When, post 480 BC, did THAT occur?
4"On that day, says the LORD, I will cause every horse to panic and every rider to lose his nerve. I will watch over the people of Judah, but I will blind the horses of her enemies. When did that happen? (Except for one brief period, which ultimately ended in failure, Israel and Jerusalem were under the yoke of occupation or enslavement from 480 BC up until they were destroyed by Rome in 70 AD.)
6. "On that day I will make the clans of Judah like a brazier that sets a woodpile ablaze or like a burning torch among sheaves of grain. They will burn up all the neighboring nations right and left, while the people living in Jerusalem remain secure. When did THAT happen? The Maccabean revolt occurred WITHIN the confines of Israel, it did not "burn up all the neighboring nations to the right and left".
7. The LORD will give victory to the rest of Judah first, before Jerusalem, so that the people of Jerusalem and the royal line of David will not have greater honor than the rest of Judah. When did that happen? ("Judah" was made part of the Israeli state in 1948, but NOT JERUSALEM! Jerusalem was re-unified to Israel, LATER -- in 1967!!!)
Most importantly, God places these events POST-Jesus (vs 10) as you yourself freely admit. For your interpretation to be true, Israel (The "House of David") would have had to ACCEPT Jesus. They didn't. A small PART of Israel did, and they became the Church. But the Church is never depicted as the "House of David". That refers only to National Israel.
I suppose we can agree to disagree, but CLEARLY, Chuck, this is not talking about the Israel that, except for one brief revolt (which ultimately FAILED), was under the thumb of constant occupation up until it was destroyed in 70 AD.
But we can nail it down even more surely from the Book of Revelation, which we KNOW was written after the end of ancient Israel.
Harking back to our discussion of Rev 4... (from note # 55) "1 Then I witnessed in heaven an event of great significance. I saw a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon beneath her feet, and a crown of twelve stars on her head. 2 She was pregnant, and she cried out in the pain of labor as she awaited her delivery. Who do YOU, Chuck say that this is?
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