Posted on 04/20/2002 4:44:02 AM PDT by Jurist
This is a transcript of AM broadcast at 0800 AEST on local radio.
Jenin massacre uncovering
AM - Friday, April 19, 2002 8:08
LINDA MOTTRAM: To the Middle East and as more information comes out of the cities of Jenin and Nablus on the West Bank, it's becoming clear that Israel will have to answer allegations that it's committed war crimes and crimes against humanity during its occupation of the West Bank.
One British forensic expert says the evidence points to a massacre by Israeli forces. That expert is Professor Derrick Pounder from Amnesty International who's inspected the devastation and examined some of the now rotting bodies that are still being pulled from the rubble in Jenin.
He says the truth will come out, just as it did in Bosnia and in Kosovo before and the UN envoy, Terje Roed-Larsen, who has also inspected the Jenin refugee camp says the sight is horrific beyond belief and that Israel's failure to allow in rescue teams was morally repugnant.
The ABC's foreign affairs editor Peter Cave reports from Jerusalem.
PETER CAVE: As he picked his way through a pile of rubble the size of several football fields which was once a crowded ghetto of houses in the refugee camp, Terje Roed-Larsen was clearly taken aback by the scale of the devastation, the bodies and the knowledge that many who died underneath were buried alive for days.
TERJE ROED-LARSEN: I think I can speak for all in the UN delegation here that we are shocked, this is horrifying beyond belief. Just seeing this area looks like as if there's been an earthquake here and the stench of death telling its own story around here.
PETER CAVE: Mr Roed-Larsen has called for a full withdrawal of Israeli forces and a lifting of a curfew in the area, not only to allow the retrieval of the dead but also to provide urgent help for those still alive.
DERRICK POUNDER: The stench of decaying corpses are all over the place. I saw personally an about 12-year-old boy being dug out, his body totally destroyed. I saw two brothers digging out of the rubble their father and their brothers.
There are people all over the place digging with their hands, looking for their relatives and dear ones. It's a horrible scene.
The devastation is nearly total at the heart of the refugee camp and we assess that about 2,000 people are now without roof over their heads. There's lack of food, there's lack of water, the electricity grids are destroyed, the water is cut.
It's a catastrophic situation particularly in the refugee camp but also in the whole town of Jenin.
PETER CAVE: Despite growing international outrage over the apparent massacre, the Israeli Government remains unrepentant. Foreign Ministry spokesman Gideon Meir.
GIDEON MEIR: Jenin is a symbol of Palestinian brutalitism. Jenin is a capital of suicide bombers. Jenin, there was a huge infrastructure of terror. We went there to fight the terrorist cells to eliminate terror. There was heavy fighting there and great fighting there. We lost 23 of our boys. Jenin is not a recreation area, Jenin is not a resort.
LINDA MOTTRAM: Israel's Foreign Ministry spokesman Gideon Meir, that report from Peter Cave in Jerusalem.
Since AiI did not reply, I will mention that, like you, I had thought he was Jewish, but have recently been informed that he is a non-Jewish American of (at least) partial Cherokee descent.
I also heard a female BBC reporter on NPR 2 days ago reporting on her walk into Jenin. She said that what struck her was the absolule normalcy of most of the place outside the one zone of all out war and destruction, people going about their lives. She had expected to find all of Jenin flattened, and this was NOT so.
No, I saw them on FR in the last day or two. See my comments to Sabramerican above.
But you knew that.
I hope.
Bullcrap to the Nth degree. This is totally counterproductive to their announced aims, (a Palestinean homeland) and is in fact conducted by the "rejectionists" who loath the idea of making peace with Israel, and will scuttle through terrorism any such "land for peace" deal.
If the Palestineans were sincere in seeking a homeland, and not the destruction of Israel and recreating mythical Palestine "from the river to the sea" as they put it, they would have had it years and years ago.
The tactic they would have employed is to snipe at and mine (command detonate) ONLY IDF forces. Snipe and shoot and kill SOLDIERS ONLY until the IDF is psychologically bled dry. This would also gain them the sympathy of David vs Goliath in the entire world.
Every terror bomb in a pizzaria destroys that sympathy, and steels Israeli resolve to NOT trade "land for peace": which is exactly what the "all or nothing" rejectionists want.
Outside Ramallah,Jenin and Qalqilya 3 weeks ago saw the IDF lined up..mentioned to some here that the roads were choked with IDF vehicles..they were..they lined the sides by the hundreds..in the vanguard of Mekavas..Magach 7's and Apc's were some of these Zeldas with the 20 and 30 mm rotary radar ranging auto-canon.
I knew then the IDF was going about things like Lebanon..that the outcome ..would be leathal.
Following the Israeli leftist progaganda machine since Sept 11th..was concerned about the IDF..Her strength..the reserve officer corp..the 30 something crowd.and stretching to 40's..how would they do?.
The past op reveals a military of great depth..with reservist unit response exceeding 120%..the IDF did in days what think tank experts said would cost hundreds of lives..and last months.
If Israel had too..she could feild an army of over 600,00 men who have fired weapons..and can take orders on a battlefield.
Sure 30% would be over 40..but their skill and resolve make them assets..and give "A maturing element" to a vigorous army.
Israel just rewrote the war college numbers scheme..experience and communication,Israel hardly mobilized..and decisively won without artillery..nukes and major airdrop package..Islam should be shaken..this country is a just as the prophecies of Balaam state..
"G_d brought them out of Egypt; they have the strength of a wild ox.
They devour hostile nations and break their bones in pieces;..with their arrows they pierce them.
Like a lion they crouch and lie down,..like a lioness- who dares to rouse them?"
So?
One wonders what the difference is between an order to deliberately and systematically kill and an order to deliberately and systematically demolish buildings with people in them.
Nothing is more costly, nothing is more sterile, than vengeance. -- Winston Churchill
Despite 9/11, ladders remain a larger threat than terrorism to the life and limb of Americans.
For the very simple reasons that private individuals, by definition, cannot commit war crimes.
(Although, with our "Army of One" slogan, perhaps that will change...)
Learning to live with people who blow themselves up in crowded places is too much to ask of anyone, then, by your own admission, that leaves option (a).
... it is morally repulsive to support a country engaging in genocide
Excuse me, but what exactly do you think the Palestinians are engaging in? It's also morally repulsive to support people who are engaging in systematic acts of terrorism.
"...they [the Palestinians] want their land back..."
What they want is control. People who go around teaching babies how to turn themselves into human bombs do not deserve control.
Jenin, even if it turns out to be a myth, has now taken on the rallying cry akin to 'Remember the Alamo!' 'Remember the Maine!', 'Lusitania,' or 'Pearl Harbor.'
You conveniently forgot "Remember the WTC!"
We can only hope that the damage done is not irreparable.
Actually, the damage done TO US is irreparable. Hence, there's no turning back on the war on terrorism, and that entails sticking by our allies who are with us, not against us, in this war.
Had it not been the sudden infusion of 10 percent of our entire frontline armored strength summarily handed over to the Israeli's, you would be part of Palestine or Lebanon right now.
Well, thank God for that! But something tells me you wouldn't mind being part of Palestine or Lebanon. And just who exactly is the "you" you're referring to?
You do make some well thought out arguments. However, I find it extremely difficult, if not impossible to believe that these people can be trusted. In order to make a reasonable deal, you have to deal with reasonable people. The Palestinians have proven to be anything but that.
However, the most compelling reason, in my opinion, for NOT giving the Palestinians what they want is that you simply can't reward their kind of behavior. You don't give in to a child who's throwing a tantrum, no matter how loudly they scream. If you do, you're only reinforcing bad behavior. Give in, even a little, and you're sending a clear signal to every would-be terrorist in the world: "Terrorism gets results." It teaches them that when they want something, all they have to do is find some bloody fool who's willing to blow himself up. You just can't do it. The only way to stop it, is to make it perfectly clear that every time one of them straps on a bomb with homicidal intentions, not only will it result in swift and severe retaliation for those left behind, but it will also damage their chances of ever reaching their goal. That it will hurt, not help their cause. The message to terrorist has to be consistent: "You want to be a terrorist. Fine. We'll show you terror."
When I kiss my husband goodbye in the morning before he heads for the office, I like to assume that a 757 won't be deliberately crashed into his building by such peace loving, reasonable people as we've seen come out of the Arab world. I like to assume that my child won't be made an orphan by senseless acts of terror. Since 9/11, I can no longer assume that. Now, my attitude is "better them, than us." Now that I can no longer trust that my family or my loved ones are safe in their daily routines, I vote for option (a).
And finally, a personal question: why is it that you are so outraged by the pain inflicted on terrorists, but you have no sympathy for the pain inflicted BY terrorists? Where does all this come from? Are you just a plain old fashioned Jew hater, an anti-American, or a terrorist supporter, or all of the above?
No way was the attack on the U.S. Liberty some sort of fog of war. You should have the sense to check with some of the survivors of the U.S. Liberty before posting such trash. Several of the survivors have contributed to the U.S. Liberty discussion at FR if you cared enough to do a search.
Please check out the U.S. Liberty web site before posting such Zionist propaganda. I find it repulsive that so many at FR spout Israeli propaganda rather than defend the facts presented by those American servicemen that were victims of the attack. Even worse are those that blame America for the multiple attacks on the U.S. liberty.
Please don't drag out the lie about the Egyptian horse carrier being confused with a U.S. Liberty ship bristling with high tech gear and plainly flying U.S. colors.
The truth is that President Johnson was a traitor for not allowing the U.S. fleet to wipe the Israeli forces out of the skies and waters around the U.S. Liberty and bring home our boys. This shame has been compounded by an extensive coverup which you refer to in your evidence. Name one U.S. survivor who backs the coverup!
Yes, that is understandable. If they have nothing to lose, homicidal bombings make perfect sense. But if that is the only card they've got, then by all means, let's take it away from them before they use it, and save the lives of their would-be victims.
Or are you suggesting that we reward them by giving them something to lose?
Yes, you make an intelligent argument. But by giving in to terrorists, we reward such behavior, and we do ourselves, and the rest of the world a great disservice.
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