THE MASSACRE THAT WASN'T

New York Post ^ | 4/17/02

[kattracks]

April 17, 2002 -- For days, Palestinian, U.N. and aid-group officials declared flatly that Israeli troops had perpetrated a horrendous massacre of innocent civilians at the Jenin refugee camp in the West Bank.

Once outside observers were allowed into the camp, they charged, it would be clear that Prime Minister Ariel Sharon's soldiers had committed a monstrous war crime that would eclipse the killing fields of Kosovo.

[ohioman]

It's called WAR. I suggest you look it up in the dictionary. Is the towel on your head wrapped too tight today?

[Bommer]

It's always a delight exposing you neocon swine to the light of truth.

So no bodies in a mass grave, but there still was a mass murder right, and you call this truth? Have you always been an idiot or are you a product of generational inbreeding? The word "truth" means facts without distortional lies. Just thought you might like to know the meaning of the word before you make yourself look like a bigger jackass then you already appear to be! SHOW ME THE BODIES! SHOW ME THE BODIES!!

[aristotleman]

He is the product of the segment of the population I like to call Ignorant-American. Jew-hatred is becoming alarming around here.

[Andy from Beaverton]

"Everybody was thinking mass graves in the way we think of Kosovo."
It's amazing how bad the truth was destroyed. What mass graves?

Racak is a hoax?

[texasbluebell]

Yesterday, Martin Fletcher on MSNBC was saying he remembered the same thing was going on in 1973 in I think Lebanon when the Israelis were accused of killing 10,000 people. When reporters got in there, he said they found that there were hundreds killed, not 10,000.

Truth sits precariously on the shifting sands of their deserts. You can't believe the moslems. Why aren't more people waking up to that fact, that's the real question, instead of waiting for moslem "truths" to be proven true someday.

[ArGee]

Something awful happened in Jenin and we'll discover the truth in due time.

A little while back the local thugs from Children's Protective Services showed up at my door. Apparently someone told them that we were witholding food from our children. It was now up to me to prove that I never did. I showed them my healthy children. That wasn't good enough. They asked the children if we ever refused to give them food and the children categorically denied it. That wasn't good enough. We gave them access to medical records. That wasn't good enough. We had their doctor write a letter. That wasn't good enough. We got testimonial letters from their teachers (including a personal gym trainer). That wasn't good enough. It took additional blood work and a visit to a nutritionist to satisfy them - all because of a phone call by another suspicious (and probaby competitive) person set them on our tail and we had to prove a negative against no substantive evidence of a positive.

Forgive me if this sounds a little personal, but you sound just like those thugs. We don't know anything went on there but what the facts reveal. It isn't up to Israel to prove they never did anything just because some people are suspicious. It is up to the suspicious people to provide some proof.

Provide some proof, any proof, and I will be up in front with you demanding an investigation. But if all you have is "something must have happened" then I must politely ask you to, in the words of Katherine Hepburn, "get permanently lost".

Shalom.

[ArGee]

WHERE ARE THE BODIES?

Precisely. Show me any evidence and I will join in demanding an investigation. But give me an ominous "We all know something must have happened" and you can go suck eggs.

Excuse me if I sound a little frustrated.

Shalom.

[Spiff]

A little while back the local thugs from Children's Protective Services showed up at my door. Apparently someone told them that we were witholding food from our children. It was now up to me to prove that I never did. I showed them my healthy children. That wasn't good enough. They asked the children if we ever refused to give them food and the children categorically denied it. That wasn't good enough. We gave them access to medical records. That wasn't good enough. We had their doctor write a letter. That wasn't good enough. We got testimonial letters from their teachers (including a personal gym trainer). That wasn't good enough. It took additional blood work and a visit to a nutritionist to satisfy them - all because of a phone call by another suspicious (and probaby competitive) person set them on our tail and we had to prove a negative against no substantive evidence of a positive.

You got off lucky. CPS routinely abducts such children and once in their custody they get them to say whatever CPS wants them to say. And even if that is the ONLY evidence, they'll use it to convict you (juvenile/family court does not follow due process/preponderance of the evidence/etc.) and permanently remove your children from your home into the abusive foster care system (50% of all child abuse deaths occur in foster care/a child is 10 times more likely to be abused in foster care than anywhere else). You are so lucky as are your children.

As for Jethro Tull, he and I have, in the past, been on the same sheet of music. The disonant chords he's striking here baffle me. He's lost it or something.

[ArGee]

You are so lucky as are your children.

Lucky after having done my part to put my lawyers' children through college.

It's odd how often professional people like lawyers use the word "gestapo" when discussing this particular form of social "services." Once the dust has settled I'm thinking of starting an organization to try to improve the legal climate a little for those of us who are innocent. I understand the issues involved when the parent is actually a danger to their children (and I recognize you are only taking my word for my own situation) but there should be more due process than there is.

But that's another thread topic.

Shalom.

[America's Resolve]

Ya know something Jeth, I really don't have a dog in this fight. I guess I side with the jews out of historical research. After all, my Christianity grew out of their Judaism.

You're wrong here. You're not even CLOSE to being right.

As soon as I started to hear from 'unspecified' sources about a massacre in Jenin, the FIRST thing that leapt to my mind was, unspecified=palistinian.

Then yesterday when I read an article posted from "The Independent", one of the UK's main newspeaks, that there were 'war crimes' but it was 'ominous' that there were NO bodies laying around, I KNEW that we were being lied to.

You do yourself no service by being rabid over stories that are so easily disprovable. People simply turn you off after a while and treat you like a child.

Just my humble opinion.

Godspeed

[Spiff]

It's odd how often professional people like lawyers use the word "gestapo" when discussing this particular form of social "services." Once the dust has settled I'm thinking of starting an organization to try to improve the legal climate a little for those of us who are innocent. I understand the issues involved when the parent is actually a danger to their children (and I recognize you are only taking my word for my own situation) but there should be more due process than there is.

There are several such organizations. One of the best books on how to defend yourself is Profane Justice: A Comprehensive Guide to Asserting Your Parental Rights by Suzanne Shell. You can order the book and find out more about her organization at www.profane-justice.org

I'm currently working with her on a few projects of my own. You can read more about those projects in another thread.

[section9]

Please name one country, other than America, who doesn't suspect a tragedy happened in Jenin.

Oh hell, I believe three tragedies happened in Jenin.

1.The Israelis did not have JDAMs at their disposal to take out the Pallie terrorists from above.

2.As a result, the IDF had to go house-to-house. As a result, 15 IDF reservists were killed who did not have to be.

3.Some Pallie terrorists actually escaped. The only good terr is a dead terr, ya' know.

Damn, Jethro, you're right. There was tragedy all around!

Be Seeing You,

Chris

[aristeides]

Arafat's henchmen, confronted by the evidence, now claim that the Israelis secretly spirited away hundreds of bodies under cover of night. Right.

The writer mentions Kosovo, but does not bother to say that the mass graves were not found there either. And when they weren't found, the same claims cropped up that the Serbs had spirited the bodies away. I haven't heard much about those claims for months, ever since Milosevic was delivered to the Hague.

[aristeides]

And this Post writes about mass graves in Kosovo as though they actually existed there.

[Tommyjo]

Some bodies were spirited away. It came as a great shock to Serbs when mass graves started appearing near Belgrade.

The head of the organised crime unit, Dragan Karleusa, has openly accused Milosevic and his supporters of ordering the destruction of criminal evidence of crimes committed by Serbian forces against the ethnic Albanian civilian population. He said that some 800 ethnic Albanians are thought to have been buried in mass graves around Belgrade, including the Batajnica site.

Some of these bodies came from the freezer trucks that popped up in the Danube and were subsequently removed, destroyed with their contents reburied on police training grounds at Batajnica. Evidence on the re-burial was given by one detective who discovered the freezer in the Danube and who helped in its removal along with the bodies.

[Jethro Tull]

#50:

Dear America's Resolve:

Thanks for your reply, but your attempt at objectivity falls pitifully short.

Perhaps you missed post #9?

The mere mention of a possible slaughter by the IDF brought a knee-jerk cry of “Dr Goebbels“ by your friends on the neocon, fascist right.

BTW, the "Independent" isn't the only newspaper screaming for an investigation into Jenin. It's a global thing. It's only the Amen Corner and their bootlicks who continue to deny the stench of rotting children...

[Jethro Tull]

#53:

Death Toll Unknown After Jenin Raid

Date: 04-16-2002;
Publication: AP Online; Author: LAURA KING,

-SNIP

While the number of dead remains a mystery, the magnitude of the destruction is an unassailable reality. In what had been a neighborhood in the middle of the camp, where concrete houses stood so close together that two people could barely pass in the alleyways, a zone roughly the size of two football fields was pounded into ruin.

But no one knows yet whether the enormous property damage _ the pulverizing of perhaps 60 homes and apartment buildings, each of them two to four stories high _ translates into a correspondingly large loss of life.

"How can you assess something like this?" said Jessica Barry of the International Committee of the Red Cross, who was in the camp on Tuesday, gesturing toward mountains of wreckage strewn with dust-covered belongings: books, shoes, cooking pots. "It's too vast for one organization to do."

-SNIP

[section9]

This was urban combat, plain and simple. The Pallies put in booby-traps. The Israelis had to fight house-to-house to get past the traps and the machine-gun emplacements. You're implying that the Israelis deliberately massacred civilians. I am certain that they did not. But civilians did die. That is unfortunate, but out of the 15,000 people in Jenin, only 2,000 stayed behind. Probably between 1-300 noncombatants were killed, which is dimestore compared to, say, Stalingrad.

I would be very interested to see how you reacted to the various homicide bombings of Jews in Israel.

The only tragedy that occured in Jenin was that not enough Terrorists got to see that 72-year old virgin.

Be Seeing You,

Chris

[Jethro Tull]

"The only tragedy that occured in Jenin was that not enough Terrorists got to see that 72-year old virgin."

Yo, what the freak is up with that stupid cartoon?

I feel like I'm communicating with a 15 y/o acne studded, hamburger flipper...

Anyway, it isn't the terrorists I'm concerned about. It's the ham handed way the bloated butcher Sharon does children.

I hear he likes them well done.

Time will tell about Jenin and your 'heroic' IDF...