Bad Kids in Class [Palm Beach teachers: 'We leave teaching because of kids' bad behavior.']

The Palm Beach Post ^ | April 14, 2002 | S. Colavecchio and K. Miller

[summer]

Also, a teacher will visit the student's home if the student is having disipline or academic problems.

I taught in an American public school that required teachers to do home visits. It is very disturbing to see the homes some of these kids are from. And, what are you supposed to do if you see the parent's crack pipe on the kitchen counter?

[Ditter]

If I am myopic then you are as well. I am talking about my area & you are talking about your area. Not all of the 12 schools were attended by my family, I am including close friends & acquaintances & none would put up with the things talked about in this article. I am not saying there are no bad trouble making kids enrolled, I am saying their bad behavior is not tolerated. I am friends with teachers & principals of these same schools. When the disruptive behavior is allowed other kids see it & follow suit. Sounds like you live in some kind of hell hole, maybe you should consider the southwest.

[summer]

Amen! Preach it! After the Columbine massacre, there were some excellent articles by Leon Bottstein & others about "the abolition of high school." My view is that compulsory education should end at 14, and that employment should be legal at 14 as well. High school could still be funded by the various state gov'ts, but it should be *by entrance examination only* (whether vocational or college-prep academic) and those who screw up either academically or behaviorally should be thrown out on their ears. True, this doesn't help with the middle-school chaos, but perhaps students should be "tracked" at 6th grade to determine whether they go to the equivalent of middle-school "reform" school, or go to a high-school-prep program.

Thanks!

Actually, I think your suggestion (in bold) WILL help with the middle school chaos, because it provides a new type of turning point and deadline for kids who are now just counting the days when they can drop out of high school or alternative school.

Also, please post any links to those articles.

BTW, I know people may think I'm nuts to suggest what I did, but, listen, I truly believe THIS method WILL turn SOME kids around.

And, for other kids -- well, not everyone matures or blossoms on the same day. Education should always be an option. If you enjoy working at Burger King for 10 years, and then decide you want something else, I think our system should be flexible enough to welcome those people back in somehow, even then.

But, at THAT POINT, if they haved flipped burgers for 10 years, these young adults may now think very differently about the value of education.

Many people do not realize our country now has a brand new sub-culture, of kids who (1) dropped out of school; (2) have no skills and (3) have no job. These are the "Nowhere Kids" according to an article published not long ago in the NYT. And, the number of these kids, in this country, is believed to be growing daily -- though by their very nature, these kids are difficult to officially count.

[summer]

My son is going to a charter school in Palm Beach Co. and I had to sign an agreement. The parents were informed at the first meeting, they either behave or they are out. They were some at that meeting I never saw again or their green and pink haired kids.

Fascinating. Thanks.

[summer]

You can be sure lowering the school age for graduation won't happen. Many states are in the process of raising it to 17 instead of 16. Missouri is one of those states.

I know what you mean. Here in FL, I think Gov. Bush has even talked about eliminating the drop-out age of 16, and making education compulsory for kids to 18. I think this is the wrong way to go for some kids. Let them out at 14, and let them back in after a year or two if they decide school has something to offer them.

[chriservative]

I never implied you are a homosexual.

Yes you did! You said "Us heteros don't get it," and because I like the show, I must therefore be homosexual. Don't take the LSATs, you'll never get past the logical reasoning section.

But this is not the point Appy!!! You never address the meat of my argument in your replies and like a liberal, you skirt the issues. If you have such courage in your convictions, then please, please change my way of thinking!!! Please explain how beating your children does not harm them. Please explain how beating your children constitutes less harm than violence on TV which airs long past their bedtimes. Please explain why YOU are allowed to watch the "smut" which YOU deem entertaining (i.e. pro-wrestling), but feel justified in your censorship of other programs which you do not deem acceptable. Please explain the difference between the two (i.e. WWF vs. "The Shield"). Please explain how beating your children amounts to protecting them. And does the AFA support child abuse as well? (We already know that they use deceit, blackmail, and extortion, so it goes with their MO - I just want to hear it from the horse's mouth)

[Just another Joe]

I was a real punk in school and stayed in trouble, but the thought of slugging a teacher never crossed my mind. If I ever did, and the school had told my dad about it, I would not be here today.

Man, the mind boggles!. The thought never even crossed my mind either. My imagination breaks down it trying to decide what punishment I would have gotten from my parents for doing such a thing.

We had a student in my high school that thought he was a real bada$$. He pulled a knife on one of the male teachers one time.
He picked the wrong teacher. The male teacher was a retired Marine.
He took the knife from the student, marched him down to the police station, pressed charges, and you know what?
Every student, teacher, administrator, and parent appluaded his actions.
No one was sued, no one was seriously hurt, and when the kid came back he never caused another disturbance while in the school.
(The male teacher told him that if he ever caused another disturbance that he would be back to have a little "talk" with him.)

[summer]

My wife has taught at both a Catholic School, and now in a public school. She taught the Catholic School kids for 4 years, and is in her 4th year of the public school (within 2 miles of each other).

She says there is really no difference between the kids. You have good and bad kids (and good and bad parents) at both schools. No one school has a lock on good or bad kids.

The discipline at the Catholic School was a joke because the principal was afraid of irritating the parents who were big donors. The principal at the public school is tough, and commands more respect than the Catholic School principal ever dreamed of.

frmrda, Good points, and I know you are right. It does depend on the school and the policies of that school. And, private schools, because they ARE a business, have to survive financially -- that's FIRST if they intend to keep their door open.

BTW -- did either of you happen to catch that recent FOX O'Reilly segment about the high school teacher at an upscale charter school outside of LA?

She complained about really disruptive students -- for TWO years -- to her administrators who would only say: "Our hands are tied."

THEN, after a long list of abuse from these HS boys that you would not believe, and NO help from the parents, she -- and attorney Gloria Allard -- sued the employer, the school district, for sexual harassment, because the employer did nothing to help stop the conduct of these boys, and created an environment of sexual harassment for this teacher, who was not an idiot but really got the shaft from everyone.

Her lawsuit was the first in the nation to sue a school district employer for sexual harassment resulting from the behavior of her students.

Now, how does it come to this phase? The teacher won over $4 million from the jury, and I think she deserved it-- but what the heck is going on where this teacher had to put up with this for TWO years before even considering a lawsuit?

O'Reilly's only question to this teacher was: Why didn't you also sue those kids' parents?

Maybe that lawsuit is coming -- somewhere in Palm Beach.

[summer]

My mom, a science teacher for 20 years, was threatened by a girl who put her fist under her chin and told her she was going to kill her. (This was at a small town school, the town had only 3000 people.) My mom retired.

I'm sorry to hear that and glad your mom got out in one piece. Obviously, these problems are not confined to big cities.

I always wondered: What do you do when the father of your student is in jail for crimes like assault, murder, etc., and if you are being fair and truthful, you know you have to give a grade of "F" to that kid -- and the kid's father has friends in the neighborhood....well, it's tough to teach when you are worried about your safety.

[summer]

Ditter, you are lucky you've had those good experiences with private schools, because obviously, those schools will not put up with those kids. Some private schools will -- depending on the school and the parents and the money.

[summer]

I got fed up for the same reason, went back to school and got a degree in nursing.

Very interesting post. Thanks. And, I know someone who left teaching to return to nursing -- despite all the problems in nursing. She too felt it was better than teaching.

[summer]

They are trying all of that. Believe it or not.

[serinde]

My position is that there are a lot of children that will not learn and be productive no matter what you do. I say we should leave these children behind and concentrate on the ones who want to learn.

I agree with this. Compulsory education means that lots of kids are still in school who shouldn't be.

[Clemenza]

What do you do when the father of your student is in jail for crimes like assault, murder, etc., and if you are being fair and truthful, you know you have to give a grade of "F" to that kid

Or if their father is "politically connected" or a cop. In my elementary school, the biggest thugs were the children of cops or other community officials. I hope my neighborhood and school were unique in that regard.

[summer]

And don't forget, the public school has to take the kids the private schools kick out

frmrda, Good point -- and I bet your wife would also tell you what I am about to say: Your above statement is also true for the flip side, in that private schools are often approached by parents seeking to enroll their kids who were expelled from public schools.

[serinde]

... lowering the school age for graduation won't happen. Many states are in the process of raising it to 17 instead of 16.

Here in Texas, they have recently made it manditory that all children stay in school until they are 18. It is still possible to get a GED at 17, but many shouldn't even be in that long.

[summer]

Bring parents into the classroom.

I strongly agree that the presence of parents, in whatever way -- to tutor, observe, even as students themselves, IMO, whatEVER -- greatly helps the classroom management situation.

[summer]

I am saying their bad behavior is not tolerated

That is the key. For any school - public, private, charter.

[serinde]

She taught a class of (I am not making this up) sixty students.

My mother was a teacher for over 30 years. She says that her first classes (in the 50s) had over 40 students each. And yet they still learned to read! Amazing, isn't it? /sarcasm

[LaineyDee]

I don't believe that it should be considered a "right" to go to a public school.

The general population has been brainwashed in this area. Liberalism is starting to reap what it's sown in the past 40 years. What a shame.

You're right when you said that Americans would consider it abuse to make the kids clean the school. Did you read the recent article about the parents whose kids were taken from them by CPS ...for making them dig ditches as punishment... in sub-zero temperatures? Nanny-gubmint to the rescue! This story was in Texas...near where I live. I can tell you for a fact... that the lowest temperature here was 19 degrees.... and it was only for a DAY. (as a kid.. we used to relish the snow so much... our parents had to drag us inside when our lips and fingers turned purple)

So.. government has taken authority of discipline out of the home, out of the schools and put it into the hands of immature minors... who wield that authority over the head of any adult who would dare challenge them... and wonder WHY the situation is out of control??? *shakes head*