The True Occupied Territories

"Since when did the government of Israel and those that approve of it's contemptuous barbarity and inhumanity give a care about anyone else?"

Hmmmm, it appears that somebody is incapable of looking at the raw facts of situation, (i.e., stripped of all spin, propaganda and disinformation), and think for themselves.

In the above quote from your previous post you used the phrase, the government of Israel. Which government would you be referring to? The Sharon government? Or The Barak government? Or maybe the Netanyahu, Peres, Rabin or Meir administrations? Perhaps Shamir or Begin?

See, there have been 11 regime changes in the Israeli government since 1968 when Yasser Arafat, the man who had joined the original terrorist group, The Muslim Brotherhood, in 1952 and founded Al Fatah, an underground terrorist organization in 1956, merged his organizations with the PLO.

Arafat has been the lone "leader" of the Palestinian people throughout those 34 years and 11 Israeli administration changes. Every conceivable political stripe from ultra-liberal to hard-line has been represented in the Israeli leadership position at some point during that time. (It's worth noting, of course, there have been 7 different US Presidents since 1968--again, from all sides of the political debate.)

Is it your contention that Arafat is the International Man Of Peace--negotiating to no avail with all of these leaders, signing peace treaty after peace treaty (Dayton Accord, Oslo Accord, Camp David Accord) and agreeing to all sorts of additional plans (The Mitchell Plan, The Tenet Plan, etc., etc.)?

You're saying, "Everybody else is the problem...It's not Arafat...He's a man of peace..." But the truth is, Bill Clinton, desperate for a legacy pushed Ehud Barak to give Arafat 95% of what he wanted. I don't know if you're familiar with how diplomatic negotiations take place, but ask any US Congressman, getting 95% of what you want from someone in your own country is rare, let alone from your "sworn enemy".

Arafat balked at that deal and until he gives a better explanation of why, 95% of the world is left with no other option but to believe that he doesn't want peace.

And of course Mr. Barak paid the price at the polls in the very next election when the Israeli people realized that if Arafat wouldn't accept that deal, he didn't want to deal and they had better get a "hawk" in office.

I could go on...but I'm getting bored and I'm sure you are too...

Suffice to say, the Palesinian people would be much better served with new "leadership". And don't believe what they spoon feed you man...

"Arafat knows that Israel, under any leader, gives only disingenuous offers"

Proved my point...only one man, Yasser Arafat puts forth valid proposals. Israel is evil, no matter who is in charge and regardless of their political bent.

Don't you see how ridiculous the premise that only Arafat has negotiated in good faith or been serious about the peace process is?

But don't rely on my arguments, look at history. Twenty years ago, Israel made a "land for peace" deal with Egypt. Guess what? Israel and Egypt may not love each other, but they're good neighbors and they've kept their end of the bargains. (Not to mention the 3 Billion dollars in aid we provide to Egypt in large part as a result of that peace.)

Look what happened with Jordan. They annexed the West Bank in 1950--a move which was deeply resented by other Arab countries who preferred a Palestinian State. As a result, King Abdullah was assassinated by, you guessed it, a (no doubt, peace-loving) Palestinian.

(Brief trip back to the 1967 Arab-Israeli war...it began with an Egyptian Naval blockade, which Jordan joined forces in. Israel begged Jordan not fight, but war broke out. Israel captured the "West Bank" at that time. Strategically, what is Israel supposed to do? She is in the Viper's nest surrounded by those who do not want Her to exist.)

REMEMBER: It was Jordan that "occupied" the West Bank when Israel took control of it--NOT the Palestinians. And Remember this too, in 1994 Jordan and Israel ended their official state of war and signed a peace agreement. Jordanian King Hussein went on to be a strong advocate for peace negotiations between other Arab states and Israel--to no avail. Again, Israel and Jordan live in peace to this day, adding further credence to my argument that Israel can and will and does make peace with it's Arab neighbors. Arafat, a terrorist since the 50's, sworn enemy of Israel, a man kicked out of Jordan, Syria and Tunisia to name but a few, and others who subscribe to his mentality are what stands in the way. And YOU know it...

Nonsense. Until Palestinians receive the right of self-determination, a state of war exists, and all contracts and offers etc made in the interim are legally fraudulent.

1. It is nice to here you take the HAMAS/Hizbullah line.
The fact is that the Arabs consider all of Israel stolen.
2. The Palestinians (2/3 of whom are cedecnded from Arabs who migrated to the area between 1890 and 1946), have a country: Jordan, composed of 75 percent of Palestine.

Israeli's stole the land, and their will never and can never be a settlement without the complete and free approval of whatever arrangements are finally made by both sides.
Considering Arafat has made it clear that the only long term arraingement is a withdrawl of Jews from Israel to another country, it aint gonna happen.

Until then, a state of war essentially exists and all things are fair in war.
OK. New idea. The Israelis expell the Palestnians and repatriate them in Palestian/Jordan. Israel then compensates them for lost property adn discomfort. Any Arab crossing the Jordan river without permission is then shot.

If behooves any nation that pretends to be civilized to not behave like barbarians.
Didn't you just say that all is fair in war? You can't fight barbarians without gettting a little messy.

Nothing will be achieved until policies are in place that honestly recognize that this is the intent of both sides, and the playing field must be leveled. This is of course difficult in a country based on a religion that as practiced by the majority of it's alleged followers is both barbaric and prejudicial. The Moslems have some faults too, since after all, they are the same people with the same nature and prejudices.

Lets destroy Israel? Thank you Titus. You might not be names after Augustus Titus, but I'm sure you would like a repeat of this line Judea capta est !

I wrote:

1. It is nice to here you take the HAMAS/Hizbullah line. The fact is that the Arabs consider all of Israel stolen.

Titus responded
This is an overstatement. There was a relatively much smaller portion purchased legally. You should keep to the facts.

When PA maps show Palestine to be from the Jordan River to the Mediterranian, the intent is clear.
Listen to even moderate Arabs. They consider all of Israel stolen, but are willing to concede part for peace.

I wrote:

2. The Palestinians (2/3 of whom are cedecnded from Arabs who migrated to the area between 1890 and 1946), have a country: Jordan, composed of 75 percent of Palestine.

Thank you for conceding they were there first.

If they are migrants, how could they be in the land first. Besides there were uninterupted communities of Jews in Israel for 2500 years.
The West Bank was made Judenrein by the Arabs between 1924 and 1948.

Considering Arafat has made it clear that the only long term arraingement is a withdrawl of Jews from Israel to another country, it aint gonna happen.

kHe offers to them exactly what they offer to him. How much fairer can he possibly be? Anything less and he would indeed play the fool.
Which Israel government has ever proposed moving the Arabs? Only minority parties do so.

OK. New idea. The Israelis expell the Palestnians and repatriate them in Palestian/Jordan. Israel then compensates them for lost property adn discomfort. Any Arab crossing the Jordan river without permission is then shot.

This is both at once moronic, viscious and barbaric, and above all you know and don't care. How can you possibly be surprised that you receive back from the Palestinians the same garbage you serve them?

Actually I was offering an absurd arguement to show the sillyness of your idea.
I do support transfer, but not of those who are willing to become Israeli citizens.

Didn't you just say that all is fair in war? You can't fight barbarians without gettting a little messy.

Thank you for approving the suicide bombings.
I don't approve of them. I do support responding in an overwhelming manner.

Titus wrote:

Nothing will be achieved until policies are in place that honestly recognize that this is the intent of both sides, and the playing field must be leveled. This is of course difficult in a country based on a religion that as practiced by the majority of it's alleged followers is both barbaric and prejudicial. The Moslems have some faults too, since after all, they are the same people with the same nature and prejudices.

I responded:

Lets destroy Israel? Thank you Titus. You might not be names after Augustus Titus, but I'm sure you would like a repeat of this line Judea capta est !

If I may explain. If the existence of Israel is the problem as it is inherently racist, then doesn't it follow that you want Israel destroyed?
That was the basis of my comments.

I wrote:
"When PA maps show Palestine to be from the Jordan River to the Mediterranian, the intent is clear."
Titus responded
I can find maps of New York and Texas that are the same. No case here.

1. New York and Texas are part of the US. Texas isn't going to conquer NY.
2. The Palestinains calling for a destruction of Israel in official broadcast mean nothings?
The fact that Arafat has yet to renounce the Phased plan of destroying Israel, set forth in 1974?
The Fact that the PLO charter still calls for the Destruction of Israel means nothing?
The fact that these are the "moderates" as opposed to HAMAS and Islamic Jihad means nothing?

"2. The Palestinians (2/3 of whom are cedecnded from Arabs who migrated to the area between 1890 and 1946), have a country: Jordan, composed of 75 percent of Palestine. If they are migrants, how could they be in the land first."

All Israelis not in Palestine in 1900 or descended from same are migrants also. 2 + 2 still equals 4 in reality. Christ warned you guys over and over again that depending on lawyering in no way to live.

1. Then we are delaing with a much smaller Palestinan populations, 1 million instead of 3 million.
2. Neither is believing in false Messiahs who fail to deliver and preach heresy.

"Besides there were uninterupted communities of Jews in Israel for 2500 years."
And uninterrupted communities of many other nationalities and religious heritages. Don't lie. Everytime you do it's a disgrace to your so-called race.

Where is the lie? There are 1300 year old Muslim communities. These were colonists who are now fighting to keep their outpost of Arab imperialism.

"The West Bank was made Judenrein by the Arabs between 1924 and 1948."

Legalisms with highly questionable grounds rooted primarily in European colonialism.

There was no legalisms. The arabs commited a series of pogroms while the British sat back or disarmed Jews. This was all illegal, but the British had already sold out Zionism and were now selling out millenia old Jewish communities like Hebron.

Last I checked, 1924 came after 5000 BC and every date inbetween.
Relevence?

"Considering Arafat has made it clear that the only long term arraingement is a withdrawl of Jews from Israel to another country, it aint gonna happen."

I guess you never ever heard of bargaining. It will come to you as a vast shock that it is widely prevalent in eh Mideast and even in certain separatist and self styled elitist antique religions sects in Europe and around the world. If you read your own posts, perhaps you will realize you have just contradicted yourself.

Where is the contradiction? Arafat's compromise is to expell most of the Jews slowly.

"OK. New idea. The Israelis expell the Palestnians and repatriate them in Palestian/Jordan. Israel then compensates them for lost property adn discomfort. Any Arab crossing the Jordan river without permission is then shot.

I'm not suprised. The PAlestinians and Arab migrants will never make peace so long as they think they can win militarily or through terrorism. Thus the only options are to :
1. Defeat them and destroy the terrorist infrastructure- Sharon's plan
2. Expell them and create defendable borders.

"Actually I was offering an absurd arguement to show the sillyness of your idea. I do support transfer, but not of those who are willing to become Israeli citizens."

Why would any sentient non-Jew want to become a second class citizen of a barbaric state?

Ask the Israeli arabs who are the freest arabs in the middle east. I'm sure that there are arabs who are more attached to the land than to the idea of killing Jews.

"I don't approve of {suicide bombings}. I do support responding in an overwhelming manner. "

Spoken like a true barbarian. The punishment of the innocent for the sins of the guilty is a crime in any part of the modern world.

Glad to know you consider the US to be barbaric.
I would also note that Israel is going out of its way to hit the terrorists and not civilians. Israel is not following the US army model of dealing with snipers by using artillery. Instead, Isreal sends small elite units who take heavy casualties.

"responded: Lets destroy Israel? Thank you Titus. You might not be names after Augustus Titus, but I'm sure you would like a repeat of this line Judea capta est ! If I may explain. If the existence of Israel is the problem as it is inherently racist, then doesn't it follow that you want Israel destroyed?"

No. These are your inferrals based on personal hysteria and assuming that the only outcome precludes the concept of civilization taking hold in Palestine. Not everyone sees it your way, nor ever will. I have every faith that some day Jews will learn to live in the world in peace and equality, if only they can overcome their own self-imposed and self-crippling racism.

1. I only care about 25% of the terroritory, the area Israel now controls.
2. I suppose you support the dissolusion of all nationality based countries?

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