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1 posted on 03/22/2002 12:42:15 PM PST by xsysmgr
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To: xsysmgr
The answer is "NO" and read Horowitz to find out why. If you don't already know.
2 posted on 03/22/2002 12:46:13 PM PST by justshutupandtakeit
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To: xsysmgr
...conservatives wonder whether a reasonable, responsible Left is possible.

By definition, no. The root premise of the Left is that your life doesn't belong to you. People are property - 'human assets' - to be managed by the State. We all know where that leads.

3 posted on 03/22/2002 12:46:48 PM PST by Noumenon
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To: xsysmgr
Walzer writes; "Can there be a decent left in a superpower?" Walzer thinks there can, but only if the Left jettisons most of its frivolous intellectual contrivances and emotional extravagances.

Then it will collapse into a pile of dust, because there is nothing else holding it up.

4 posted on 03/22/2002 12:49:45 PM PST by Noumenon
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To: xsysmgr
*bump*
6 posted on 03/22/2002 1:16:02 PM PST by Yardstick
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To: xsysmgr
only if the Left jettisons most of its frivolous intellectual contrivances and emotional extravagances.

By sheer simple definitions, this is not possible for the liberals - they have to "feel" a moral superiority over all those not agreeing with their viewpoints, and two, liberals are only known for doing things that "feel good" - not looking at the facts....it's simply not possible....it's too much of a paradigm/worldview shift to go from Qualitative to Quantitative interpretations.....

10 posted on 03/22/2002 1:40:06 PM PST by NorCoGOP
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To: xsysmgr
Can there be philosemitic Arabs and Nazis?
11 posted on 03/22/2002 1:42:53 PM PST by ZeitgeistSurfer
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To: xsysmgr
Good points. It pays to reread the essays of George Orwell, who was a definite liberal, even socialist, yet, thoughtful and more than willing to strike out wisely to his left.
12 posted on 03/22/2002 1:46:23 PM PST by rdww
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To: xsysmgr
Is a reasonable, responsible Left possible?

No. Socialism is coercive by definition. It can only be enforced at the point of a gun. You cannot have a choice between a free market and communist socialism. Quick example: I'm teaching a class, and I tell the students, "Grading in the class will be on one of two models. You can choose either one, and may change at any time during the school year. The first model is the socialist model. All the grades will go into a pool, and each student will receive the average of the rest of the pool. The other is the merit system, where each student will receive the grades they have written on their tests." All of the A students will opt to work on their own merit. All of the lazy or F students will opt to take the class average. When the B and C students see themselves being pulled down to D's because of the lazy students, they will opt out. Eventually, the "pool" will only be made up of the lazy and incompetent. If I want to have anyone but total losers in my socialist society, I must make sure that the high performers have no other option. That's where we got the Berlin Wall, and many other trappings of Communism. The Left in the US just wants to make sure there's nowhere else in the world to run to.

13 posted on 03/22/2002 1:51:45 PM PST by Richard Kimball
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To: xsysmgr; RJayneJ; Lazamataz
Is a reasonable, responsible Left possible?

No.

The overall goal of the Left is to "equalize" society. To that end Liberals want to transfer money, resources, and privileges from you (i.e. the wealthy, productive, efficient, educated, rational population) over to them (i.e. the poor, downtrodden, uneducated, inefficient, and unproductive population).

The Left uses several tools toward this end.

1. The press. What the media reports and what gets high praise (re: entertainment) tends to either support the overall goal directly or at least undermine a facet of an opposing ideology.
2. Government. The Left proposes the same solution to every problem, no matter the cause or effect: government. Are people unemployed, then the government needs to provide unemployment benefits or make work via social spending. Are people discriminated againt, then the government needs to insert itself into every case and force people to no longer discriminate. Name a problem and the Left has a government solution for it.
3. Education. The tenure system has long been co-opted by the radical Left. Our children will be inundated by liberal mush long after Left-wing ideologies fade from fashion simply because we can't fire all of the pedarasts for keeping their catamites locked in their ivory towers.
4. Dependency. Many people are compelled to vote with their pocketbook. The Left has long taken advantage of that fact and used their positions of power to create generations of people who are entirely dependent upon them.

So why can't the Left be reasonable or responsible?

Because it isn't reasonable to take from one productive group to give to an unproductive group (save for a few worst case, safety-net exceptions). Nor is it responsible to create generation after generation of dependents. 40 years and three generations after Jim Crowe laws have been repealed, why are Affirmative Action programs still needed to ensure that some groups find jobs and college admissions? The only answer is that earlier Affirmative Action programs created more dependency, not less.

Furthermore, the Left will adopt any position that fosters its agenda, even if said position conflicts with existing positions. To wit: labor unions versus environmentalists. Unions want jobs (ala drilling in ANWR). On the other hand, environmentalists want an end to development (which they refer to as exploitation of Mother Earth). The enviro-nazis also find themselves in conflict with urban Lefties. Urban Lefties want cheaper housing, but enviro-lefties fight "urban sprawl" tooth and nail. Without new housing, however, the Supply versus Demand crashes the financial hopes of many urban Lefties. There just aren't enough homes in most urban areas.

Moreover, Lefties can't be reasonable or responsible because they are Machiavellan. By that, I mean that Lefties will say any lie and engage in any subterfuge to promote their cause. To them, the Ends justify the Means.

So they tell us that abortions are rare. They tell us that guns cause crime and suicides. They tell us that it's a good idea to pack the poor into subsidized housing. They claim that it makes sense to release criminals from prison early (10 year sentences often mean 10 months now). Drugs are good, they say, but smoking is bad, et al. Rent controls will keep housing costs low, they claim. Regulation will keep electricity costs down, they say.

Can the Left ever be reasonable or responsible?

No.

The Left is our enemy.

14 posted on 03/22/2002 1:54:22 PM PST by Southack
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