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To: Southack
Given that it's ludicrous to suggest that a 100 keystroke document could arise by chance, it's well beyond ludicrous to suggest that the genome of the simplest organism could arise by chance in one step.

Which is why nobody suggests such a thing in the first place. I'm rather amazed that this guy, for all his obvious mathematical ability, hasn't been able to spot his fundamental flaw, or that nobody's bothered to point it out to him.

Cumulative Selection - One of the most frequent arguments one hears against the theory of evolution is that complex forms and behaviors simply couldn't have evolved by ``random chance'' alone. The point we must often get across to students is that evolution does not, in fact, work this way; change is cumulative. Richard Dawkins, in his book The Blind Watchmaker, dispels the myth of random chance by using the very metaphor that opponents of evolution often turn to: the monkey at the typewriter. This program models his suggestion that, were a monkey allowed to type random letters, he would produce a work of Shakespeare very quickly if letters he happened to type in the right places were preserved with each attempt. With this program, students type in a phrase of their choosing and observe how long a random phrase takes to ``evolve'' into their target phrase. Below are some sample investigations...

Joshua Coxwell, http://biology.uoregon.edu/Biology_WWW/BSL/Cum_Sel.html


3 posted on 03/05/2002 10:18:47 PM PST by general_re
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To: general_re
Richard Dawkins, in his book The Blind Watchmaker, dispels the myth of random chance by using the very metaphor that opponents of evolution often turn to: the monkey at the typewriter. This program models his suggestion that, were a monkey allowed to type random letters, he would produce a work of Shakespeare very quickly if letters he happened to type in the right places were preserved with each attempt.

Right. Of course, reality would lie somewhere between the two extremes: there exists positive feedback mechanisms, so that beneficial mutations are more likely to be propagated than bad ones, but some beneficial mutations won't be propagated while some bad ones are.

The $1,000,000 question, though, is whether there exists a sequence of mutations which could occur to go between major species with at most a few mutations not being beneficial in and of themselves. If there are sequences of mutations which would have to occur without the individual mutations themselves being useful, then those situations would represent the sort of improbability to which the author is alluding.

Personally, I suspect that the 'truth' of the matter is that evolution and natural selection account for some, but not all, of the diversity of life on this planet. The Theory of Evolution, while it does not explain everything, is nonetheless scientifically useful within those areas of taxonomy where it is effective. I find it puzzling that some would argue that even such a narrow-scope view of evolution contradicts the bible when there is far more biodiversity on this planet than could ever have fit within the Ark. If one is to accept as true anything even remotely resembling the story of the Great Flood, it would follow that some level of evolution must have occurred between then and the present day.

8 posted on 03/05/2002 10:41:26 PM PST by supercat
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To: general_re
Dawkins is a clever atheist, but that is all.

This program models his suggestion that, were a monkey allowed to type random letters, he would produce a work of Shakespeare very quickly if letters he happened to type in the right places were preserved with each attempt.

"Very quickly"? Highly doubtful.

Who or what intelligence determines the "right places" and who or what intelligence does the preserving?

Dawkins is a clever atheist ideologue, nothing more, and he has risen to prominence because he is an atheist, not because he has anything useful to say about Evolution. He is making an effective argument here for Intelligent Design.

33 posted on 03/06/2002 6:06:42 AM PST by Phaedrus
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To: general_re
Which is why nobody suggests such a thing in the first place. I'm rather amazed that this guy, for all his obvious mathematical ability, hasn't been able to spot his fundamental flaw, or that nobody's bothered to point it out to him.

I also am rather amazed that you don't see your fundamental flaw. In order to have "cumulative selection" there must first exist a mechanism by which this occurs. But having such a mechanism presupposes the existence of that which the mechanism is invoked to explain. It's yet another example of question-begging. You can't invoke "laws of nature" to explain the coming into existence of nature since the laws of nature depend on a pre-existing nature.
48 posted on 03/06/2002 7:04:02 AM PST by aruanan
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To: general_re
Article quote:

Given that it's ludicrous to suggest that a 100 keystroke document could arise by chance, it's well beyond ludicrous to suggest that the genome of the simplest organism could arise by chance in one step.

" Which is why nobody suggests such a thing in the first place "

I'm not sure you understood his point. If that is NOT what is suggested, then HOW do you suggest that the base pair sequence necessary to sustain the simplest, and presumably first, chemical/biological life form originated? His point is that it is mathematically infeasible to imagine one created by chance. If not by chance, where else did it come from? Remember, this is PRIOR to the appearance of natural selection phenomenon.
270 posted on 03/07/2002 3:13:43 PM PST by ableChair
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To: general_re
Your comment is fatuous. Think about it this way. Could the authoritative text of Hamlet (assume that this phrase has a referent) have arisen by a evolutionary process from an ur-Hamlet text as discerning theater audiences chose between random variant texts? So, in one version, Hamlet soliloquizes "To be or not to BRIE," but that loses out in popularity to "To be or not to BE," and so on, as theater audiences painstakingly improve the text word by word. Isn't this story ridiculous? Yet something like it is the standard account of evolution.
476 posted on 03/17/2002 7:54:49 PM PST by maro
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