"I do think you underestimate your grasp of the logic being used. You are an invaluable ally of the true scriptural position of an UNLIMITED ATONEMENT. Christ truly did die for all. And all truly are capable of coming to him."
Does this mean all the sins of all men were hung on the cross with Christ? And if so, why, then, are not all men forgiven of all their sins? (Jerry is getting to this as well)
"We must keep our eyes on those truths of scripture, because all of the logic we use trying to explain it is just that....human logic."
We must also realize when to NOT use human logic when explaining scriptural truth.
If we insist the truth of Scripture is ALWAYS logically consistant, then:
Buh-bye Creation out of Nothing
Buh-bye Trinity
Buh-bye Miracles
Buh-bye Virgin Birth
Buh-bye Incarnation of Christ
Buh-bye Resurrection of Christ
Buh-bye Resurrection of the body
Buh-bye God relating to the created
In other words, Buh-bye Christianity
Last evening I read Mr. Wesleys sermon. I found him to be incredibly logical and sound in his reason. But, the thing which really stood out to me, is his insistance that Calvinists really do not believe what they say they believe, but that they really must believe what are the logical conclusions of their beliefs. In doing so, Mr. Wesley does not argue from Scripture, he argues from mere human reason. This is an emotional argument which uses logic to insist what Calvinists should believe what is logically required of them, and in doing so, brings up tremendous emotion as to why they are wrong. What really suprised me most was the fact that he did not argue from Scriptue until he had made his logical argument of what Calvinists should believe. Nary an citation was present until he had mischaracterized reformed theology. By insisting that Calvinists do not believe what they really believe, he then used scripture to argue against what he thinks Calvinists should believe. This is a very persuasive argument when one doesn't realize this tactic. In otherwords, Mr. Wesley is using logic to argue from emotion and is not arguing from Scripture. The problem with this is that this argument then denies the Trinity, Creation out of nothing, the resurrection of Christ... For we hold all these doctrines to be absolutely true even though they are all thoroughly illogical.
I then read George Whitefield's response and I could not put it down (only 16 pages? DANG!). He rebutted Mr. Wesleys entire debate with Scripture and not emotion.
If these arminians insist that we Calvinists really believe what logic requires of us, then I insist that they argue that we do not also believe in the Trinity, Creation out of Nothing, The resurrection of Christ, The incarnation of Christ...for when one considers logic in these doctrines, how can they be?
Jean
bingo!" how can it be that Oh my God has died for me?" Yep no logic there!