On Free Grace

You posted part of Romans 10 and asked, "Do you think reading this that it is God's decision or mans that send him to hell?"

First, thank you for such a good question. : )
Now that we are back on the subject... As I said earlier, I see no easy answer to the apparent support for Calvinism in the Bible. It goes against the attributes God claims in so many other verses. (As do many actions He apparently supported in the Old Testament.) So this is a difficult struggle for me.

Looking at the verses you posted:

There is none righteous, no, not one:
(So far so good)
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
(Supports the idea of its being God's choice to call us to seek Him)
12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
(No one does good until he is saved? Do you really believe that? Honestly - think about it before we jerk our knees over our belief that the Bible is God's literal word. I know many people who do or did many good, caring things while yet unsaved. My grandmother comes to mind, along with other friends and relatives.)
13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
(not everyone's)
15 Their feet are swift to shed blood:
(I know many whose aren't)
16 Destruction and misery are in their ways:
17 And the way of peace have they not known:
18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.
(What about "even the demons fear God"? And don't you know people who fear Him but don't really know Him? )

So you see my dilemma? I always read the Bible from a fundamentalist's point of view. But once I began serious study, blaring contradictions in the text became too much for me to ignore. Unfortunately, I still believe that if the Bible is not inerrant, we are hopeless to undrstand the Truth without depending upon personal interpretation.

"Do you think reading this that it is God's decision or mans that send him to hell?"

I would hope that it is man's decision.

However, in the context of this discussion, I would say that the calvinist idea that God chooses to rescue some from their life of sin, knowing that the others will be left helpless in it, would put the onus on God and not the man.

When did His creation begin to make the decisions?
When He created them in His image.

It would have been better worded when did the creation start making His decisions

BTW Ward..who's image is man made in?

See Genesis.

Genesis 5
1 This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him;
2 Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.
3 And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, and after his image; and called his name Seth:

John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Total depravity Ward!

"Can you tell me at what point God lost His sovereignty? When did His creation begin to make the decisions?"

Just when I thought you were ready to drop the game-playing to have an honest discussion...

I give up. I and others have stated and restated our belief in His sovereignity - directly answering your accusation repeatedly. Yet you persist.

One more time, I repeat from my earlier post: I said I acknowledge His omnipotence and love Him more for His choosing not to exercise His power over us so that we could come to Him out of Love.

12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

(No one does good until he is saved? Do you really believe that? Honestly - think about it before we jerk our knees over our belief that the Bible is God's literal word. I know many people who do or did many good, caring things while yet unsaved. My grandmother comes to mind, along with other friends and relatives.)

The issue isn't how we men judge "goodness" it is how God judges goodness.

Isaiah 64:6
But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

the word for rags here is the word used for the cloth used to catch a woman's monthly flow,or the drainage from a lepers wounds..that is how a Holy God sees our righteousness..Job 15:16 How much more abominable and filthy is man, which drinketh iniquity like water?

The only "goodness " we have is that which HE gives to us

Galatians 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips: 14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness: (not everyone's)

Matthew 12:36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.

15 Their feet are swift to shed blood: (I know many whose aren't) 16 Destruction and misery are in their ways: 17 And the way of peace have they not known: 18 There is no fear of God before their eyes. (What about "even the demons fear God"? And don't you know people who fear Him but don't really know Him? )

I know people that joke about hell because they do not REALLY believe that God is their judge

You have done a fine job trying to point out that somehow man may be worthy of Salvation..

For those sins in the list that you see all men not guilty of I will quote James

James 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

All of us have been found guilty by God of all of the above..

He wont. CCDodger is too determined to win the debate to consider the truth, much less show enough respect to offer a thoughtful reply.

Your post was excellent. Thank you.

But when you are patient enough to continue urging some toward a mature dialogue, the best you'll get "reply" with a twisting of your words, a diversionary tactic, or another irrelevent diatribe that answers everything except the questions you asked or the points you made.

And if he accuses you of something, he will not apologise no matter how false his accusation is proven to be.

BTW Ward..who's image is man made in?
You're grasping Mom.
If Adam was created in God's image, then his "image" was "God's image. So, if Seth was in Adam's "image," then...
Unless your saying that Adam's sin caused a complete makeover and he no longer had any of the God given attributes.

Do you really think I am grasping at straws? Do you really think a sinful man can EVER reproduce a child in a sinless Gods image? That is what original sin did .That is what total depravity is Ward

Lets see what Wesley says shall we?

3. Seth was born in the 130th year of Adam's life, and probably the murder of Abel was not long before. Many other sons and daughters were born to Adam besides Cain and Abel before this; but no notice is taken of them, because an honourable mention must be made of his name only, in whose loins Christ and the church were. But that which is most observable here concerning Seth, is, that Adam begat him in his own likeness after his image - Adam was made in the image of God; but when he was fallen and corrupted, he begat a son in his own image, sinful and defiled, frail and mortal, and miserable like himself; not only a man like himself, consisting of body and soul; but a sinner like himself, guilty and obnoxious, degenerate and corrupt. He was conceived and born in sin, Psalm li, 5. This was Adam's own likeness, the reverse of that Divine likeness in which Adam was made; but having lost it himself he could not convey it to his seed.

(Taken from Wesleys notes on Genesis)

Sure sounds like total depravity to me

Now from Adam Clarke

And begat a son in his own likeness, after his image] Words nearly the same with those chap. i. 26: Let us make man in our image, after our likeness. What this image and likeness of God were, we have already seen, and we may rest assured that the same image and likeness are not meant here. The body of Adam was created provisionally immortal, i.e. while he continued obedient he could not die; but his obedience was voluntary, and his state a probationary one. The soul of Adam was created in the moral image of God, in knowledge, righteousness, and true holiness. He had now sinned, and consequently had lost his moral resemblance to his Maker; he had also become mortal through his breach of the law. His image and likeness were therefore widely different at this time from what they were before; and his begetting children in this image and likeness plainly implies that they were imperfect like himself, mortal like himself, sinful and corrupt like himself. For it is impossible that he, being impure, fallen from the Divine image, could beget a pure and holy offspring, unless we could suppose it possible that a bitter fountain could send forth sweet waters, or that a cause could produce effects totally dissimilar from itself. What is said here of Seth might have been said of all the other children of Adam, as they were all begotten after his fall; but the sacred writer has thought proper to mark it only in this instance.

So what do you think? Did the fall matter?

Sounds like an evolutionist to me (not that I'm equivocating Calvanism with evolution). I don't debate with evolutionists much. There's some scripture about debating things that are of no profit (I can't recall offhand exactly what it is, but it is unfruitful. I do not believe discussing scripture with brothers in Christ is unprofitable. Heck, some in my chapel call on Mormons (and others) for information concerning their doctrine. Then they lie in wait for them to appear at their doorstep to proselytize their doctrine and then are witnessed to. Many come back repeatedly for pain sessions (I'm assuming it must be pain because the Word is hard to argue against. I'm not proficient enough to be able to stand my ground in open air ministry - yet. :)

As I said, it is my belief that Calvanist's are evangelical brothers in Christ (as are Lutheran's and most likely other Protestant faiths ), however the doctrine that they purport is flawed. There is no truth greater than the Word of God (see John 1:1-18).

You should understand that my becoming involved in this debate is merely a right of passage according to my growth in our Lord Jesus Christ. Thank you for noticing me, I hope others do too.

God created man in his own image meaning that man has intellect, emotion and will

If we look at God's attributes, you will see that he has a body as revealed by the theophany incarnate ie. Jesus Christ.

The Lord is spirit ie. having a personal, rational and moral sense.

However, the following attributes of God should be illustrative of the gulf that separates the created from the creator

emotion
intellect
anger
self-existant (Exodus 3:14; John 8)
immutable
perfection
righteousness
justice
loving
insomniac
eternal - father of time (Isaiah 9:6)
See II Pt 1:3 See Mt 16:17 How many men can clam their love is: undeserved
unselfish
absolutely free
righteous
eternal
divine
reciprocated
loving the unlovely (see Romans 5:6)
truthfull: dependable, not misrepresented nor exgagerated

Is God's image equal to God (see Jn 5:18)?

Can God's image be called any of the following:

Jehovah
Elohim
Adonai
Son of God
Lord
prototokos
monogenes

Is he any of the following:

Omniscient
Omnipresent
Omnipotent
Immutable
self-existant in:

Holyness (see Isa 6:1-5)
love (see Jn 16:27)
truth (see Jn 14:6)
eternal (see Isa 9:6)
pre-existant (see Micah 5:2; Dt 32:7; Isa 63:9; Amos 9:11, Jn 1:1-3,15,30, 17:5; Col 1:17; Phil 2:6-11, Isa 45:23)

Does man have the following privledges:

saving faith
forgiveness of sins
recieving worship
judge men (per Jn 5:22; Acts 17:31)

Don't get too hung up on the man created according to God's image.

Adam did have a free will when he was created. He could choose to sin or choose not to sin. Once he fell, he had only one choice - sin. There is none righteous, no not one. No one seeks God. Jesus said, I am come to seek and to save that which was lost. It's not the other way around.

One, actually while Calvinism states that Adam had 'free will' in point of fact no one has it since it is God who, through His directive will(eternal decree) decreed that Adam sin! Remember Calvinists do not accept the idea of a 'permissive will', the view that God would allow that which He does not want.

Two, no one questions we are 'dead in our sins' the question is can one respond to the free offer of Grace, if it is God who provides the Light (2Cor.4:6).Remember God did seek out Adam even though Adam hid.

Thanks for the post.

Behold, tomorrow about this time I will cause it to rain a very grievous hail, such as hath not been seen in Egypt since the foundation thereof until now.
Send therefore now, and gather thy cattle, and all that thou hast in the field; for upon every man and beast which shall be found in the field, and shall not be brought home, the hail shall come down upon them, and they shall die.
He that feared the word of the Lord among the servants of Pharoah made his servants and his cattle flee into the houses:
And he that regarded not the word of Lord left his servants and his cattle in the field
And the Lord said unto Moses, Stretch forth thine hand toward heavan, that there may be hail in all the land of Egypt, upon beast, and upon every herb of the field, throughout the land of Egypt.
And Moses stretched forth his rod toward heaven: and the Lord sent thunder and hail, and the fire ran along the ground; and the Lord rained hail upon the land of Egypt.
So there was hail, and fire mingled with the hail, very grievous, such as there was none like it in the history of Egypt since it became a nation.
And the hail smote the nation throughout all the land of Egypt all that was in the field, both man and beast; and the hail smote every herb of the field, and brake every tree in the field.
Only in the land of Goshen, where the children of Israel were, was there no hail.

Ex 9:18-26

(See also Daniel 4:1-37) See Ro 9:18-23 (Ninevah and Jonah) It would appear to our innocent reader of the scriptures that taking the words of scripture at face value and in accordance to their common understood meaning at the time the words were written, total depravity is in contention, irresistable grace is in contention, unconditionality is most likely next to be contested.

The next issues needing addressing from a Protestant viewpoint - holding to la Sola Scriptura - are that of:

Limited attonement
persitance of the saints

See ya, :)

you're going to more or less wave his arguments off with "you've been deceived by Satan."

Nakatu, they are carrying a disagreement from a previous thread onto this thread. It was among the first questions asked, even though it had nothing to do with this thread.

You are precisely correct. I'm a conservative, evangelical Christian and have been since Jesus found me in 1972. I'm a believer in a real resurrection, an inspired scripture, and a real return of the Savior.

But because I argue against their brand of calvinism, which I don't accept in any brand, they label me as "under the influence of satan."

See post #52. There is preserved a description of other calvinists who thought a man (Servetus) was "influenced by satan." Their arguments have failed, so now they insinuate and attack. It's truly sad.

God has always known who would come to Him, but He gave them the choice, the free-will to do so. Our finite understanding of an infinite God doesn't comprehend how He could have always known we would come to Him and still allow us to choose Him.

Ward, I would phrase that a bit differently, but not much.

I would say, "God has always known who would come to Him, but he knew them in the context of His having given them the power to choose Him." In other words, God's foreknowing is not thoughtLESS, but is thoughtFUL.

God's thoughFUL foreknowledge ALREADY KNEW that God would NEVER create a choiceless humanity. God's thoughtFUL foreknowledge was embued with God's attributes of LOVE and RIGHTEOUSNESS. God foreknew a humanity to whom he had granted the ability to make real, individual free choices.

That means that humans today are capable of making real, true, individual free choices. "Whosoever WILL may come."

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