Posted on 02/25/2002 11:01:41 PM PST by fortheDeclaration
Should read: What gospel is that in? Either you say those things are acceptable within God's law and grace, or you agree with the Mormons.
Oh, I'm sorry, I thought the adults were talking.
We stand on the Rock..the stumbling stone
1Pe 2:8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, [even to them] which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.
FACT #1: The Calvinists have been accused, tried and convicted of PRIDE by their very own words claiming "they have all the answers."
FACT #2: We have established the following definitions of grace:
Wesleyan/Arminian: The grace or love of God, whence cometh our salvation, is FREE IN ALL, and FREE FOR ALL.
Calvinist/Borg: Resistance is futile.
FACT #3: Calvinism is good because the Mormons say it is bad.
FACT #4: Calvinists believe truth is relative. Truth can only be eternal truth IF it agrees with the Calvinists.
FACT #5: Calvinists do not disapprove of adultery, murder or incest, because after all, the Mormons do.
Number 4 and Number 5 may be withdrawn once the Calvinists acknowledge that some truths are eternal and that even the unregenerate may grasp some truth.
Is this suppose to be your justification.
Do you agree with this definition?LDS Bible Dictionary (Salt Lake City, 1990 printing p. 681):
When one speaks of God, it is generally the Father who is referred to; that is, Elohim. All mankind are his children. The personage known as Jehovah in Old Testament as LORD (in capital letters), is the Son, known as Jesus Christ, and who is also a God ... he being the eldest of the spirit children of Elohim.... The Holy Ghost is also a God.
You continue to miss the point.
Is adultery bad?
Is murder bad?
Is incest bad?
I've been asking those questions since last night but, thus far, not a single Calvinist has answered.
Because if you do, you'll prove my point.
But it doesn't matter it's just you guys who are too blind to see it anyway. Or perhaps just to stubborn to admit it.
By the way, almost 1200 posts later, you still never responded to my #49.
Keep plowing that field..it is almost ready for the seed Ward
What point is that; that you can justify your association with WM?
Oh great, put the pastor on the spot!
I think that Woody had it just right in 1147. If one is regenerate, then all of their sins are forgiven. This does not mean that they do not sin, and it does not mean that they cannot grive God by their actions. Self-destruction would be an offense against God, but could be forgiven, due to the fact that forgiveness is of God.
Also, I believe that we need to look at the circumstances involved. Suicide, could actually be a righteous action in a limited number os scenarios. For example, what if I am the only person in the world who knows the combination to the vault that contains the last remaining vestiges of small pox, and terrorists attempt to capture me in order to obtain that information. Knowing that they can torture this information out of me, would it not be a righteous act to kill myself rather than allowing myself to fall into their hands? Or, if captured, wouldn't it be the righteous action to allow them to kill me when giving them the combination would allow me to keep my life? I know that these are esoteric, but they are plausible.
Would it be righteous to allow myself to be killed for continuing to say "Christ is Lord", when I could save my life by uttering (even if I didn't mean it) "Caesar is Lord"?
However, most suicides are not of this nature. For example, the call I went out on this weekend. A young man had just lost his grandmother the day before. He had been battling drug and alcohol addiction. He was in trouble with the authorities. He had just had a fight with his brother, and then decided to end his life, and was successful. When I notified his father of his son's death, this man asked me "Do you think that God can forgive my son?" My answer? "I don't know the mind of God, I can only trust in Him." This man thanked me for my answer, recognizing that I could truthfully say no more, as would be the case with any of us. I believe that my compassion for him, as well as my shared sorrow, allowed him to see that I was being genuine, even though I didn't have much to say that would be of comfort to him.
(Now, before anyone analyzes this to death, and suggests a different course of action that could have been taken, let me ask that you do so not from the comfort of your present situation, but from the stark reality into which I was thrust. In other words, "walk a mile in my mocassins".)
I have been accused of being unequally yoked with the Mormons since I happen to agree with WhiteMountain that Calvinism is a horrid theology.
Let me state here and now, Mormonism is worse. I believe their teachings are false. I believe they will lead true believers astray.
BUT THE FACT IS: - The do possess some of the truth. However warped we may view it, however misguided they may be, they do hold some spiritual truths that would be in agreement with all of us on this board.
The Calvinists are just smarting because WM and I have problems with Calvinist theology.
Perhaps most telling of all is that it doesn't seem to bother the Mormon that I'm in agreement with the Calvinists concerning Mormonism.
However, this has never been a discussion of Mormonism. This was a discussion concerning truth.
We know the Calvinists believe they have it all.
That doesn't mean that no one else has any of it.
Ephesians One tells us why God chose, not once, but several times, and we have stated that on these threads numerous times as well: God chose in order to accomplish the praise of His glory. Can you think of a higher purpose?
That does not impress God
WM is glad for any Christian ally he gets..
Watch your mail Ward...you could be a publisher clearing house winner:>)
Sorry for getting out of the box you have constructed for me.
The silence is deafening.
But very telling.
So, what you are telling me is that if Mormonism is likened to brownies, then who cares if they are full of poison. I'll tell you what, if you really want to hide with this argument:
I'm gonna make you brownies with only 1 "secret" ingredient: ONE BIG FAT FETID COW PATTIE. Now, do you want to even be near my brownies, or would you throw them away as fast as you can.Now, I happen to regard the "partial truth" argument in the same way; A PILE OF BULL.
The Calvinists are just smarting because WM and I have problems with Calvinist theology.
To be quite honest with you, the only sleep I have lost lately was worrying about what my pastor would say when I told him my theology last Monday at lunch.
Murder, adultery, and incest are bad.
(There, now are you satisfied? However, just because I am also against abortion doesn't mean that I am going to deny the Reformation and return to Rome either.)
The most important question, for you, is this: What if the Calvinists are correct? We believe that we are, and that we have "the mind of Christ". If so, it is not pride that states that we are correct, but the assurance that the Spirit of God has given us the right answers. If we are correct, that doesn't bode well for you. See, you think that mormons have some truth. We deny that, recognizing that (oops, if I really say what I want, then I will be banned for bashing). As a result, we don't think that half-truths are truths, they are falsehoods.
What if we are correct? I Corinthians 2:14.
Foolish rationalization that it was!
| FreeChoice Position. | Scripture | Implication | Calvinist Objection | Calvinist Implication |
| 1. - - God elects only on the basis of foreseen faith and condemns only on the basis of resistance to grace. | John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Romans 8:29 For those God foreknew he also predestined Joshua 24:15 Choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve...But as for me and my household, we will serve the Lord ." Revelation 7:9 After this I looked and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and in front of the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands. |
People go to heaven or hell based on their own choices for or against Christ. God foreknew their choice. | U - - Unconditional Election means that God has elected for His own glory, in accordance with His own will and without regard for the merit of those elected, some for salvation and some to be left in their sins. | God chooses whether or not any individual will be saved. He chooses based on his own reasons which he has not revealed. |
| 2. - - Christ provided a universal opportunity by dying for all men and for every man such that ALL those who turn to him as true repentant believers are saved. | 1 John 2:2 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world. Acts 17:25 And he is not served by human hands, as if he needed anything, because he himself gives all men life and breath and everything else. 26From one man he made every nation of men, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he determined the times set for them and the exact places where they should live. 27God did this so that men would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from each one of us. |
The opportunity for Salvation is available to everyone. Christ's sacrifice is sufficient to cover all sin. Everyone is allowed to come to Christ. | L - - Limited Atonement means that Christ died specifically and only for the sins of those who would ever truly believe in Him.. | Christ's sacrifice was intended only for those who were chosen ahead of time for salvation. Everyone is not allowed to come to Christ. |
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