Posted on 02/25/2002 11:01:41 PM PST by fortheDeclaration
BUSTED!
I've got the place, the look, it's Han and Leia and it's Han's line...
In fairness (okay I was boasting, so I can't scream fairness), but we haven't watched the first three as much since Episode I came out.
Winston, they're accusing you of "satanic influence" (accuser of the brethren......who could that be?....SAATAN!!)
It happens when I disagree with the mind-cult line. You're of a more direct disposition when you call their construct, non-christian, and you act at these times like their own "ortho" and "aggressive." Makes them angry, but they cannot see it in the opposite direction.
ya may want to ask him to cite his source..
Well, I learned this afternoon that their constant harping on error (which I had heretofore regarded as merely obnoxious) is actually misleading sound people astray and into their brutal and callous doctrines.
I admit to being more than a little upset by that. They are now not merely prideful, puffed up and smug in their prattling and preening, their constant misstatements are leading some of Christ's "little ones" astray.
The frozen chosen are sowing weeds. We need some Scriptural 'Round-Up" here.
"But he is in one mind, and who can turn him? and what his soul desireth, even that he doeth. For he performeth the thing that is appointed for me: and many such things are with him." -Job 23:13,14
"For he spake, and it was done; he commanded, and it stood fast. The Lord bringeth the counsel of the heathen to nought: he maketh the devices of the people of none effect. The counsel of the Lord standeth for ever, the thoughts of his heart to all generations." -Psalm 33:9-11
"Lift not up your horn on high: speak not with a stiff neck. For promotion cometh neither from the east, nor from the west, nor from the south. But God is the judge: he putteth down one, and setteth up another." Psalm 75:5-7
"The Lord of hosts hath sworn, saying, Surely as I have thought, so shall it come to pass; and as I have purposed, so shall it stand" -Isaiah 14:24 (emphasis mine)
"I am the Lord, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me: That they may know from the rising of the sun,and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the Lord, and there is none else. I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil. I the Lord do all these things. Drop down, ye heavens, from above, and let the skies pour down righteousness: let the earth open and let them bring forth salvation, and let righteousness spring up together; I the Lord have created it. Woe unto him that striveth with his Maker! Let the postsherd strive with the postserds of the earth. Shall the clay say to him that foashioneth it, What makest thou? or thy work, He hath no hands? Woe unto him that saith unto his father, What begettest thou? or to the woman, What hast thou brought forth? Thus saith the Lord, the Holy One of Israel, and his Maker, Ask me of things to come concerning my sons, and concerning the work of my hands command ye me. I have made the earth, and created man upon it: I, even, my hands have stretched out the heavens, and oall their host have I commanded. I have raised him up in righteousness, and I will direct all his ways: he shall build my city, and he shall let go my captives, not for price nor reward, saith the Lord of hosts." -Isaiah 45:5-13 (emphasis mine)
"Remember this, and shew yourselves men: bring it again to mind, O ye transgressors. Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me, Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying. My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure: Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it." -Isaiah 46:8-11 (emphasis mine)
Jean
(I'm tempted to let FTD know that THE Bible (KJV) declares that God does indeed create evil *grin*)
There! See that? ftD and I disagree. He is wrong of course about us, but the rest of his post is very good! There is just no escaping the fact that the god the Calvinists propose cannot predetermine all of our choices without being the author of evil and the enemy of God-given free will. This is contrary to the teaching of the Bible, and the love, mercy, and justice of God.
So will I.
Jesus: Repent, and believe in (live according to) the gospel.
White Mountain: Repent, and believe in the gospel.
So from what do you invent the rest of your post? Why do you make up these false accusations, and bear this false witness, for which you owe me an ever greater apology?
Do you not preach "another gospel", which says that the god you propose predetermined all our choices, even Satan's, and so the god you propose is the author of evil and the enemy of God-given free will? That is not the way God is!
Jesus: Repent.
White Mountain: Repent
Yes, Woody, you need to repent and believe in the gospel. The Lord's arm is stretched out still.
These passages do indeed declare God's omnipotence, foreknowledge, etc., but they do not say that God creates evil or predetermines all our choices.
There are some passages you could quote, such as: "... shall there be evil in a city and the Lord hath not done it?" (Amos 3:6b) that are a bit more of a challenge, but those you quoted aren't the ones.
Was that an evil grin? ;-)
"I am the Lord, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me: That they may know from the rising of the sun,and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the Lord, and there is none else. I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil. I the Lord do all these things. Drop down, ye heavens, from above, and let the skies pour down righteousness: let the earth open and let them bring forth salvation, and let righteousness spring up together; I the Lord have created it. Woe unto him that striveth with his Maker! Let the postsherd strive with the postserds of the earth. Shall the clay say to him that foashioneth it, What makest thou? or thy work, He hath no hands? Woe unto him that saith unto his father, What begettest thou? or to the woman, What hast thou brought forth? Thus saith the Lord, the Holy One of Israel, and his Maker, Ask me of things to come concerning my sons, and concerning the work of my hands command ye me. I have made the earth, and created man upon it: I, even, my hands have stretched out the heavens, and oall their host have I commanded. I have raised him up in righteousness, and I will direct all his ways: he shall build my city, and he shall let go my captives, not for price nor reward, saith the Lord of hosts." -Isaiah 45:5-13 (emphasis mine)
Right there in black and white, in the King's English!
Jean
You could probably say that, but you'd have to go back to the greek or hebrew to varify! ^grin^
Jean
I am the Lord, and there is none else. I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil.....
.....Right there in black and white, in the King's English!
You actually believe this means God is some skitzo who creates moral evil...and then turns around and judges this same "evil" and fries people in Hell for it?
What a warped and monstrous characterization of our Holy and gracious God.
This passage is NOT saying that God is the ultmate creator of "moral evil" ( which would make Him a hypocrite and phoney in the rest of the Bible for condemning it)...BUT rather it is refering to God bringing disaster (as opposed to peace) in response to the sins of man.
It's amazing how Calvinists can distort scripture to paint a picture of an evil and sadistic God. How sad!
If the Bible says it, I am prepared to believe it.
I believe what the Bible says....
.....No matter what.
But the passage you cite:
Actually speaks of "the righteous" as a singular individual. Now, it's possible that it is hereby speaking of "the righteous man" in general, i.e., any righteous redeemed man. But the singular usage suggests that it is speaking of The Righteous Man in particular, the Conquering Messiah who returns to earth for the purpose of destroying His enemies and throwing them into Hell. As such, it is probably cross-referential to the prophecy thereafter given in Isaiah 63:3-4, where Jesus declares the coming of His Day of Wrath, when he will slaughter all the enemies of the Father:
Since Vengeance belongs to the Lord, I tend to regard Psalm 58:10 as bespeaking the Wrath of the Lamb. Not "the righteous man" in general, but The Righteous Man in particular, shall be the One who will wrathfully wash His feet in the blood of the wicked, and spatter their blood upon His garments.
And according to Deuteronomy 32: 40-43, the Redeemed of the Lord are not to take vengeance themselves (Hebrews 10:30), but rather to rejoice when the Lord slaughters His enemies:
I rather doubt it.
Your "theology" does not allow you to read the Bible as it is written.
Gosh, you hate the Bible as it is written. Your "theology" compels you to re-word the Bible.
Because your "theology" is Anti-Biblical.
It says that these wicked folks begin going astray as soon as they're born. Well, it also says that they're like poisonous young snakes and that God should kill them while they're young.
Actually, it says,
"Cubs" do not have "great teeth". They do not have "great teeth" until they are grown into Young Lions, imitators of their father the Devil, who "as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour" (1 Peter 5:8)
But the Elect have no cause to fear these young lions. Jesus of Nazareth intends to break their teeth (Psalm 58:6), trample them underfoot and splatter their blood upon His garments (Isaiah 63:3-4) and make His arrows drunk with their blood (Deuteronomy 32: 40-43). We, His People, simply rejoice; for he will avenge the blood of his servants, and will render vengeance to his adversaries.
Then they'll go to heaven, no doubt. Killing babies for Jesus.
No, the Psalmist says that Jesus is going to break their teeth as young lions, not as cubs. They will grow into years of accomplished Blasphemy before He, in His Wrath, tramples them underfoot and spatters their blood upon His garments.
After all, if His Father intended to Elect them unto Heaven as infants, He could call them home in infancy, if He saw fit.
But He has seen fit to permit the Reprobate to grow into "young lions" before He makes His arrows drunk with their blood.
Actually, the point of the psalm is that Judgement will eventually fall on those evil ones who seem to glide by without anyone apparently keeping them in line
Actually, the point of the Psalm is to believe what it says.
To a Calvinist, it is not really that hard to believe that God says what he means, and means what He says.
At least, that is the CALVINIST approach to Scripture.
Then you believe God when He says it is NOT His desire that ANYBODY should perish..but that ALL should repent and be saved.
I don't believe that God brings unrepentant sinners into Heaven.
I believe that God is the Creator of Repentance. Mature, adult belivers are capable of manifesting Repentance, but God Alone is the giver of every good and perfect gift.
Do you believe that Penitence is required for Salvation? I believe that John the Baptist was Saved from his mother's womb.
If Repentance is required for Salvation... and John the Baptist was Saved... then God must be able to create Penitence in even an unborn child.
Oh, you say to me, Infants cannot manifest their God-created Penitence? Well, I will freely grant that, to our darkly-seeing mortal eyes, regenerate infants cannot demonstrably manifest Penitence. I mean, sure, maybe if you brought the Unborn Messiah into the very presence of a Penitent Unborn, they might dance about the womb for joy (Luke 1:44), or something like that. But otherwise your Mortal Eyes would have no idea that God had created Penitence in such a little one!!
But who cares what your Mortal Eyes can see?
Man looks upon the outward appearance (1 Samuel 16:7), but God directs the hearts wherever He wills (Proverbs 21:1).
Done. #1038.
I'm never going to run out of answers, Shadow... the Bible is on my side!!
2 Peter 3:9 is Peter's epistle to those who have been granted faith (2 Peter 1:1), not "Peter's epistle to everyone and their dog".
God is not willing that Any to whom Peter is writing should Perish. Which proves the Calvinist Fifth Point, the Preservation of the Elect.
Seriously, Jorge, if you can show me where Peter prefaced his epistle, " to them that have obtained like precious faith with us and everyone else and their dog", I'll accept your reading.
Until then, I will accept that Peter was writing his letter to the people he specifically addressed.
That is why Peter, like, addressed a specific group of people, and stuff.
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