Posted on 02/22/2002 6:17:19 AM PST by ArGee
Q: Why should society be involved in personal issues such as (marriage, drug use, homosexual sex, etc.)?
A:People exist in society not by convenience but because people are social by nature. We do not exist well in a vacuum. Part of the function of our society is to maintain norms of interaction that will allow us to survive. We call these norms our culture. Historically, cultures must be based on concrete fundamental truths. They can't be based on the whims of the moment or they will fall apart. In fact, historically, those cultures that have lasted the longest were based on concrete fundamental truths and they fell only when the societies stopped enforcing those rules. To date, only one culture in all of human history has been able to reconstruct itself after it fell, and that was because it returned to those concrete fundamental truths and cherished them until it could regain its land. I'm talking about Jewish culture and Israel.
America was founded on concrete fundamental truths. France was not. Both governments had similar ideals, but America had a culture to sustain those ideals and the government has been working here for over 250 years. You can't say the same for France because their culture is not based on concrete fundamental truths. If America lets those truths go, we will go the way of France, which is headed for the same fate as Babylon or Ninevah or Rome or any other ancient culture.
Q: Why should society care what individuals do?
A: If decent human beings don't stand up and fight for our foundational culture, our republic will be lost, because as moral values are tossed aside, the government will be there to regulate the behavior produced by those loss of morals. A climate of immorality only gives the government an opportunity to expand.
Q: Social and/or legal discouragement of homosexuality won't reduce the occurance of SAD
A: If the practice of homosexuality is shunned people would be more eager to overcome the defects in their lives than succumb to them. SAD is curable, you just have to want to be normal again. Unfortunately in today's society we support these SADs in their sickness giving them no motivation to be cured.
Society is essentially enabling the deviants to live a comfortable life as a deviant instead of encouraging them to seek a cure.
Q: If gays were allowed to marry like normal people then the negatives (promiscuity, disease, domestic violence) associated with existing gay (male) lifestyle would decrease.
A: A 'monogomous' SAD couple were responsible for the rape and torture of Jesse Dirkhising. The incidence of monogomy in the SAD culture is extrememly small. What makes you think that a piece of paper will cause people to be monogomous when they spend all their time now being promiscuous? The only thing that will stop SAD promiscuity is SADs getting healed.
Q: Why should evidence that one can discourage welfare dependence by making welfare unavailable tell us anything about whether we can discourage homosexuality by keeping marriage unavailable?
A: They are both behaviors. Make the results of the behavior unpleasant and the behavior will eventually go away. The problem now is that SADs are coddled rather than forced to face their perversion and it's results. Therefore they choose to remain in the SAD lifestyle instead of seeking a cure.
NOTE: This isn't just a SAD issue. This applies to all sexual deviancy.
Q: Why would allowing 'gay' marriage mean allowing other perversions to marry? Leaving aside that marriages to dogs or dead people or children cannot be consensual, and are therefore not comparable to the mutual commitment of two adult humans (of the same or different sexes), why can't we just say "yes" to one and "no" to the others?
A: The union of two men or two women is not comparable to the union of one man to one woman as the SAD union has no potential to produce children (which as we all know are the future of our society). So right now our laws do say "yes" to one and "no" to the other. We say yes to beneficial marriages (those that have the potential to produce new members of society) and no to detrimental marriages (those that have no potential to produce). Rather than start down the slippery slope of allowing all perversions to marry lets just say no to all of them.
(Note that inability to have children due to impotence etc in a normal couple is usually not known until after the marriage. The institution must support the potential to have children which ONLY male-female *normal* marriages provide)
Q: Comparing 'gay' marriage to bestial (pedophilial, necrophilial etc) marriage is not a valid comparison.
A: If we break the definition to include one detrimental type of union we will eventually have to break it to allow all of them. Look at how the pedophiles are lobbying the APA to be delisted as a disease (or they may already have been) they are about 15-20 years behind the SADs. History shows us that compromise on our core values always results in the death of those values.
After all pedophilial marriage is not comparable to beastial marriage because its two humans involved. And bestial marriage is not comparable to necrophilial marriage becasue two living things are involved. Etc ad nauseum. There will always be a reason why the next favorite perversion is somehow better than the second next favorite perversion. Let's just sidestep the whole thing and disallow all the perversions (which is what our laws do now)
Q: But I also think that gays can only be more likely to behave in manner more supportive of good social order if society treats them as if it expects such responsible behavior.
A: You are correct. The practice of homosexual sex is not now, nor will it ever be, 'responsible behavior'. Therefore we must expect, and make that expectation known, that the SADs seek a cure to their behavior.
Q: Shutting gays out of "respectable" society and its institutions only encourages rebellious and self-destructive behavior.
A: The problem is that SADs are not shut out of respectable society. You can't fire someone just because they are a pervert. You can't kick them out of rental property you own, you can't socially penalize them in any way. If we did, we'd have less SADs. The practice of homosexual sex is not now, nor will it ever be, "responsible behavior"
Q: Homosexuality is genetic. Therefore it's ok
A: No study has ever found a 'gay' gene. In fact studies using identical twins have shown that there is no genetic component to SAD.
For the sake of argument however, lets assume that a 'gay' gene is found. SAD then falls into the area of other genetic diseases like alcoholism. Just because an alcoholic is genetically predisposed to the disease should society excuse his self-damaging behavior and let him drink as much as he wants? NO! Society demands that he control his behavior and stay sober in order to be a member of respectable society. Drunks aren't welcome in most places including most places of business.
Likewise, if SAD is genetic, the SADs should be shut out of respectable society until they control their behavior. This includes shutting them out of any place where children or respectable people will be. Socially repugnant behavior is socially repugnent whether it is genetic or not.
Q: Can you prove that homosexual behavior is harmful?
A: To individuals? The medical evidence is overwhelming. To society? The only way to "prove" such a thing is to design an experiment where there are two groups of societies where the only distinguishing feature is that one allows homosexual behavior and the other doesn't. Then we have to watch and see what happens. Even if we could do such a thing, wouldn't it be a tad unethical to try?
A more telling question is, can you prove that homosexual behavior is not harmful to a society. Remember we started with a society that didn't permit homosexual behavior and was doing well. In all of history, homosexual behavior has been shunned, or the society did not stand. While that does not constitute proof, it does stand as evidence. We have a standard that works. Now you want to tinker with that standard. The risk to our children is great if homosexual behavior is inded harmful. Why should we let you tinker? Give me something concrete that says you aren't doing any harm before I let you experiment with my society. The burden of proof is on you, not me.
Q: Why do you focus on homosexuality? Aren't adultery and fornication just as much an abomination to God? Those are heterosexual sins. Why don't you pay any attention to them?
A: Christians don't just focus on SAD. But in the public policy arena the adulterers and fornicators are happy to keep the issue private. When such issues become public Christians do respond, as when Gary Hart had to withdraw from his presidential bid, or when Bill Clinton was impeached. We even respond to our own, as when Jimmy Swaggart was caught with a prostitute, or when Gary Bauer was meeting with a female junior staffer behind closed doors for long periods of time. Homosexual Activists are the ones who force Christians to address SAD as a public policy issue. If they had been happy to keep their sexual deviancy a private issue, Christians would be happy to be focusing on other things.
But while all sin is sin from the moral perspective, there is a progression from less destructive to more destructive from the social and personal perspective. There is also a progression from soft heart (like King David) to hard heart (like Pharoah). Adultery and fornication are wrong and destructive. And they are more wrong and destructive than greed and gluttony, which are more wrong and destructive than white lies. Picture a slippery slope on the way to a completely hardened heart. Some sins are closer to the soft hart, other sins are closer to the hard heart. The Bible, especially Romans 1, makes it clear that SAD is the final step. Romans tells us that "God gave them up..." God doesn't give up easily. SADs are very nearly completely hardened. Ex-gays will tell you how hard it is to come out of that lifestyle. They will also tell you how important it is.
Sure I can.
But since I can't go to a thread and cut and paste a particular defense of SAD on your part, I will table the accusation until you provide a new instance. Having encountered you on many threads I have memory of you doing far more than simply condemn government imprisonment of SADs. But I won't ask you or anyone else to accept my memory as a valid statement, so I'll wait for another quote.
Shalom.
I will miss her as well. From what I can glean, she is a little tired of the good guys getting suspended while the perverts have free reign.
This suggests to me, that you have very specific people in mind which you call "perverts". Personally I think it is quite cowardly and in fact reprehensible to smear people you don't even know as "perverts". I find it even MORE cowardly that you would make such a suggestion without having the courage and integrity to stand behind your words.
But of course you feel justified in your actions, so long as you make such smears while couching them in a Mr. Rogers tone of voice, and provided you say something about Jesus at the end.
The fact is though, that your actions are no less reprehensible, and no less cowardly for your demeanor. You do a disservice to your faith and to your intended goals by acting in such a fashion.
Uhhhh.... OK.
Yeah that David... he was a helluva guy. I particularly thought it was admirable when he sent one of his subjects out to die, so that he could have sex with the guy's wife. Not that he was a tyrant or anything.
And that Solomon.... yeah he was a great guy too. What with building that temple with slave labor and all. But I'm sure he wasn't a tyrant either.
Rulers initiate force in the lives of otherwise free men.
Jesus was not an initiator of force.
David, and Solomon were tyrants.
And George Washington was a Deist.
You never asked for political rulers. You asked for "rulers". Jesus rules all! Please try to understand
Israel under David and Solomon prospered like never before or since. The common man under David and Solomon's rule fared better then he ever had before. How is it tyrannical to serve your people well. David and Solomon (at least during his early years) ruled in strict accordance to God's command. You can't go wrong when you're obeying God. Tyrants don't obey God, they obey themselves. Please try to understand.
George Washington was indeed a believer in God but from his speaches and his prayer journal it is seen that he is not a deist (at least as websters defines the term) Washington called on God repeatedly for aid and blessing (which is not a deist ideal) and in his journal and some of his speaches called on Jesus Christ. As far as can be seen from his words and actions he is a Christian. Please try to understand, it isn't enough to just know.
GSA(P)
I'm sure Uriah would beg to differ.
Jesus was not an initiator of force.
So every ruler is by definition a tyrant? So we are left with the tyranny of anarchy where every man is his own ultimate authority. I don't think you really want to live in a world like that. I know I don't.
Man is a fallen and evil creature, left to our own devices we will quickly kill, rape and enslave anyone weaker than ourselves. No amount of liberal wishing and hand wringing will ever change that fact.
And Jesus did too initiate force. Read the bible and try to understand
GSA(P)
I'm sure you can provide proof of this... right?
Any "ruler" who initiates force against an otherwise peaceful individual, is a tyrant.
And Jesus did too initiate force.
No, in fact he did not. Jesus' only use of force came in his confrontation with the moneychangers in the temple. Inasmuch as the temple can be considered his property (for the sake of this argument), his actions in defense of his property against the uninvited actions of the moneychangers, cannot be considered an initiation of force.
What with building that temple with slave labor and all.
Read the bible. No slave labor was used to build the temple. It was built by the Jews who were either donating their time or were well paid to do the work. God's house deserved only the best and no 'slave' would work freely enough to build God's house.
GSA(P)
Ever been in new Orleans on Mardis Gras?
You were specifically asking me to name names? Why? Do you need me to tell you who the homosexuals are on FR? Many have identified themselves to me. If they have not identified themselves to you, that's between you and them, not you and me.
I did specifically state that I had no knowledge of whether you are a pervert or not. The only issue between you and me is you and me, and I addressed that specifically and clearly.
Shalom.
You've already demonstrated that you don't know how to read the Old Testament. You now demonstrate that you don't know how to read a browser screen either. I clearly stated that men aren't perfect.
2 Samuel 22:26-27 (ESV)
"With the merciful you show yourself merciful;
with the blameless man you show yourself blameless;
with the purified you deal purely,
and with the crooked you make yourself seem tortuous.
Shalom.
Jesus was not an initiator of force.
He was and is, but not against men.
But you still show a woefully inadequate understanding of what rulers are supposed to do. It is true that men, especially men who don't know G-d, think that the role of a ruler is to "lord it over" his subjects. But a Christian ruler is to lay down his life for his people.
Shalom.
John, This thread is really supposed to be for keeping up SASU talking points. You and I have both been sucked into somethign else. I think you've treated this understanding vs. knowing thing very well and very clearly. It is not your fault if someone refuses to see.
Just a thought.
Shalom.
No. I prefure more wholesome persuits. But I am aware of what goes on there.
I was not aware they had Straight Pride parades.
Shalom.
She is still taking a break from FR, but she is OK.
Those who were praying, please remember to say Thank You to Him who answers.
Shalom.
What else would you call it?
Shalom gam l'cha, yedid.
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