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To: kcox
If salvation is a predetermined work of God, not subject to any decision any man may naturally make, why was the death of Christ on a cross necessary?

Good question - but you've confused me with the Calvinists who are preaching predestination here.

Truth is, God pretdetermined before he formed the world that that all mankind should come to him and abide with Him forever (eternity) but sin put a barrier between God and man that the Mosiac Law worked around as many were saved by faith alone but Christ was the true atonement and His death on the cross was the one and only, final payment of the debt we could not - as sinful mortals - pay.

God gives mankind the choice of accepting the atonement of Christ by accepting Him as the savior or rejecting him, as most unfortunately choose to do. He does not predetermine our salvation, that is a cruel and destructive doctrine that I have opposed here and elsewhere when it rears it's head. It's defenders are quite obsessed with this doctrine and will never stop defending it, to their loss. It's false and worthless. They defend a lie that diminishes Almight God's grace and love for his creation, mankind. They should be ashamed but instead they are arrogant and proud of this false doctrine they espouse. Sad.

Don't take my word for it, take God's Word.

Hebrews 2:9

"But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honor; that he by the grace of God should taste death for EVERY MAN".

There are many more passages in scripture that refute the Calvinists but I'll leave you with this one:

John 12:32

"And I, if I be lifted up from the earth will draw ALL men unto me."

Friend, there is no 'elect'. Christ died for all. Some accept Him, some reject Him but He died for us and awaits us to simply come to Him and accept His love, salvation and eternal life. That is the gift of God, given freely. That many reject it is what makes Him a just God. We have the informed choice. Those who reject His gift (of salvation) will have no one but themselves to balme when Judgement Day finds them without excuse and without hope. They chose it.

The joy of Christ is that our acceptance of Him is voluntary. We are not robots. We are God's children and when we come to Him, as children, He receives us, without reservation. No special 'elect' people, no predestination exists. It's a false doctrine, false teaching and I urge you to reject it totally, as most have. Trust God, not man-made doctrine.

438 posted on 02/22/2002 12:17:31 PM PST by Jim Scott
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To: Jim Scott
Didn't mean to post to you specifically, but to board in general. Especially those professing Calvinists out there.

To me the question seems very valid. If God could, at his good pleasure "elect" a people to himself, then what is the necessity of a sacrifice for our sin? If God chooses to "make us alive, spiritually", totally apart from any action on the part of spiritually dead mankind, than our salvation is a work of God the Father ,and Him alone.

If Salvation is the work of the Father, the actions of the Son seem to be quite meaningless. This really goes against scripture.

God could have, at His good pleasure, "elected" a people without the necessity of sending the Son. The soverignty of God is reason enough to "elect" a people, but obviously this is not the case in scripture.

T= total depravity.... ok

U= unconditional election....ok

L= limited atonement.... why is any atonement needed if God need simply elect one for salvation?

442 posted on 02/22/2002 12:43:18 PM PST by kcox
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To: Jim Scott
"Friend, there is no 'elect'" I guess Paul is lying when he says there is an "elect" people.
450 posted on 02/22/2002 2:10:11 PM PST by rwfromkansas
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To: Jim Scott
It's false and worthless. They defend a lie that diminishes Almight God's grace and love for his creation, mankind. They should be ashamed but instead they are arrogant and proud of this false doctrine they espouse.

This is really bad...prodestination...

The joy of Christ is that our acceptance of Him is voluntary.

Hmm...."voluntary"---very big of you...

Push the right buttons--code...

We are not robots...

our acceptance--choice gives God an ego boost?

Give the tin man a shot of oil?

Boost in God's ratings---"voluntary" applause?

Isn't this all worldy---you think predestinatian is hokey...

prodestination---audience participation is camp---trashy!

"diminishing Almighty God"...??? Ask the man out on the street---letterman-leno??

You're on the stage hamming it up---pity-pity---impromptu---God improvisation---interpretations of scriptures---the spotlight...what an act---

look who's in the last row laughing at you--me!

Prodestination...is that what you are!

Free will-choice---you sound like a liberal!

530 posted on 02/23/2002 2:10:41 PM PST by f.Christian
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