Posted on 02/18/2002 8:54:15 PM PST by rwfromkansas
Just as soon as you ask God why he said in John 3:16 that whomsoever believes in him shall be saved but then, according to your reading of scripture, he dooms many to hell, just because he feels like it, I guess. You would know this of course, as you subscribe to this fictional doctrine that God plays favorites. He doesn't when it comes to salvation, brother. On that, scripture is clear...except to Calvinists, of course, who are all 'elected'. You deny the grace of God to his creation then foolishly attempt to accuse me of denying God his sovereignty. What nonsense you post, brother.
Get real. I'm angry with false teachers like you, not God. I'm delighted that God is in control and I'm very glad that he extends his grace to me through Christ and offers me the salvation I accepted years ago. That you and your friends refuse to 'allow' God to be merciful to the creation he loves (by your false doctrine) is tragic and frustrating but never mind. Keep quoting your proof verses at each other and keep limiting God's grace to a few - as long as you're part of the few, I would guess. Your doctrine is unscriptual and destructive and I will always oppose you in God's name.
Not here, I'm weary of the sane argument over and over. I need to get off this thread as it goes nowhere. You'll pray for me, I'll pray for you -in love - and neither you or your Calvinist supporters nor me or my like-minded FReepers will change a thing, will we?
I do find the 'good teacher' pose you folks like to take in some weird attempt to patronize those who oppose your false Calvinist doctrine rather silly. Save it, please. Civility is fine but no non-Calvinist finds your doctrine believable for a moment and your scripture interpretations are well, to be kind, wrong. Let's knock off the Sunday School teacher pose, shall we? We're not your students and you folks are certainly not our teacher. We are your doctrinal adversary. I charge your doctrine to be false, unscriptual and demeaning to God's grace and love. I reject your premise of 'elect' and non-elect as well as salvation predestination.
Clear?
Would you be suggesting that anything--from the largest events in history down to the smallest event--is outside the will of God?
I'm not "suggesting" it.....I am saying the Bible clearly teaches it.
Scripture tells us that it is not God's desire that anyone should perish....but clearly the Bible teaches us that many perish.(duh)
Notice that I directly answered your question...unlike you who avoided answering my question above.
You actually believe God desired for Lucifer to fall, for people to commit horribe sins etc. etc???
BTW, you are misusing the word desire; horribly.
Right. Well don't keep me in suspense too long as to exactly how I am "misusing" it.
Wow, the horror of your world to believe that God is not in control!
Good nite my Roman Catholic friend...
P.S. Nothing is outside the will of God! [1 Tim. 2:4] Is the weakness in the "desire" of the Lord (verse 4) that "all men" should be saved? No, for this is an effective desire, both to Wish and to Will; indeed, this same Greek word, for "desire", is found in Romans 9: 18 -- So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.; and this is a powerful Desire indeed, by which He has raised up pharoahs and ruled the affairs of men and nations!!
No, then, I was not exaggerating Jim's position.
Nice try.
As if whether or not your were exagerating Jim's position depended on me....LOL.
You claimed Jim was "asserting that God deliberately Wills the Salvation of every man without exception".
I haven't read all Jim's posts, but enough of them to reject this characterization of his position.
Again..if I am wrong...prove it by showing a quote from Jim that takes the position you claim.
Now, answer my question. Does the all in 1 Tim. 2:4 mean each and every single person without exception?
Check your lexicon;
3956 pas {pas} Greek: adjective including all the forms of declension;
Translated as:
all (748 times)
all things (170 times)
every (117 times)
all men (41 times)
whosoever (31 times)
everyone (28 times)
whole (12 times)
all manner of (11 times)
every man (11 times)
no (9 times)
every thing (7 times)
any (7 times)
whatsoever (6 times)
whosoever + 302 (3 times)
always (3 times)
daily (2 times)
any thing (2 times)
no (2 times)
not translated (7 times)
misc (26 times)
Total: 1243 times
Possible Definitions:
1) each, every, any, all, the whole, everyone, all things, everything
Jim I stopped reading right here..and I would suggest your reread what you wrote..The he you are so gibbly denying the right or authority to create and dispose of HIS property as HE will is the Almighty God of the Universe..The Creator of ALL things..and you can not even capitilze the H in HIS..
Yes Jim I do believe HE can DOOM anyone to hell that HE chooses..We all everyone of it deserves it
Romans 3
10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: 11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
15 Their feet are swift to shed blood:
16 Destruction and misery are in their ways:
17 And the way of peace have they not known:
18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.
Yes Jim I guess HE can condemn anyone to hell HE CHOOSES
And jim if I had written the words you have written there I would fall on my knees before God tonight
Matthew 12:36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.
Wow, the horror of your world to believe that God is not in control!
ROFL!! What makes you think I cannot reconcile the above scriptural truths with a God that is in control?
It seems to me you are missing the big picture.
But, I have to admit, your hysterical distortions of the positions of all who disagree with you ( ohhh "the horror"!)...earn you first place for message board holy roller drama queen of the week award.
Congratulations!
Jim I stopped reading right here..and I would suggest your reread what you wrote..The he you are so gibbly denying the right or authority to create and dispose of HIS property as HE will is the Almighty God of the Universe..The Creator of ALL things..and you can not even capitilze the H in HIS..
Yes Jim I do believe HE can DOOM anyone to hell that HE chooses..We all everyone of it deserves it
"We all everyone of it deserves it"???????
Do we have an interpretor to untangle this mess of a sentence for us?
And you rag on Jim for not capitalizing "Him" ??? LOL!
And your discription of God's "authority to create and dispose of HIS property as HE will is the Almighty God of the Universe" is not only grammatically incorrect but is a hideous distortion of the character of God and His loving relationship to His creations.
God sent His ONLY SON to suffer and die for mankind because of His great love for us....and for you to reduce this to a phrase "create and dispose of HIS property" as He sees fit minimalizes and cheapens the entire Gospel beyond belief.
The more I hear from Calvinists on this board the more sickened I am by their distorted theology.
God can do anything He wants.
But God is gentleman and doesn't force His will on people whom He created free.
God respects man's right to freedom of choice because HE GAVE THEM THAT RIGHT.
Why are these concepts so hard for Calvinists to comprehend?
Why? According to you Calvinists God must have predestined Jim to say these words...and also whatever punishment He pre-ordained Jim to suffer...
You asking Jim to fall on his knees and repent means that you are therefore try to thwart the perfect will of God...acccording to your own theology?
The hypocrisy and two-faced double talk of some Calvinists is just astounding.
Why don't you make up your mind what you really believe and then get back to us.
We all,everyone of us ,deserve it (hell) Thank you for giving me an opportunity to restate it clearly
Is it clear Jorge? We all belong in hell
We all belong in hell
It is only God's grace that saves the "whosoever" that you like to quote..
The question is Jorge who is the whosoever? Who wants to come? Who wills to come? How are you different than those that do not.
It is obvious you know you are smarter than the lost is there anything else you have done to deserve Gods grace? How have you won God's favor?
And you rag on Jim for not capitalizing "Him" ??? LOL!
I was not making an English or proof reading comment..the small h is a sign of disrespect..but it is obvious you would not know that
Would you have a scripture on this? election is in the NT 47 times where is "God is a gentleman?
God respects man's right to freedom of choice because HE GAVE THEM THAT RIGHT. Why are these concepts so hard for Calvinists to comprehend?
Calvinists believe that men do indeed have free will why is that hard for you to understand?
The question is what forms the will of men Jorge?
Did you select your parents? Your sex? Your place of birth? Your IQ? Your parents financial status? Or did God predestine those things? But you are not angry with God for that are you? "Before you were formed in the womb I KNEW YOU"......ummmmmmmm sounds like predestination to me!
So Jorge what forms a mans will ? Why does he wills what he wills?
Romans 3
10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
So Jorge unless Paul was a liar natural man never seeks after God
Why do some will to and others not?
You must be very proud of your doctrinal ignorance to display it on such a heavily traveled web site.
The question is Jorge who is the whosoever? Who wants to come? Who wills to come? How are you different than those that do not.
Besides that I believe......I don't know that I am any better or any different.
It is obvious you know you are smarter than the lost is there anything else you have done to deserve Gods grace? How have you won God's favor?
I dunno.....harrassed Calvinists?
"And you rag on Jim for not capitalizing "Him" ??? LOL!"
I was not making an English or proof reading comment..the small h is a sign of disrespect..but it is obvious you would not know that....
It is obvious you don't read my posts before responding...I always capitalize the "H" when the Him is God.
But I don't always feel the need to nit-pick at those who neglect to do so........
Normally I would not Jorge..but it fit with his disrespectful tone toward God.
Now you can mock me all you choose, but I do expect all of us to be respectful of God and His name..I felt that Jim was mocking God ..so the small h was telling
So Jorge unless Paul was a liar natural man never seeks after God
Who claimed "man seeks after God"?
And how does this deny the scriptures that God seeks after man, and gives him the choice to reject or accept His offer of salvation?
It is late in Buffalo and I am going to bed now..but tonight think about why you believe? Think about family and friends that do not. And then tomorrow maybe you can tell me why you want to know and believe in God. Why is your will different?
Remember "Many are called but few are chosen":>))
Perhaps you can intercede on my behalf before you ascend to heaven.....or I get trampled by herds of Calvinist on FR..(whichever comes first)
Meanwhile I will continue to wait for Biblical documentation supporting your claim of my "doctrinal ignorance"........
It's late in beautiful Filthydelphia too (same time-zone as Buffalo).....and the I heard today that the terrorists wanted to attack the Liberty Bell.....it already has one crack in it...think about that!
Here's a suggestion for you.
Since you are quick to offer prayer suggestions to those who find your bibical observations absurd and unbibical, I suggest you pray fervently to God and ask forgivness for doubting His grace and love and recasting Him as arbitrary and capricious in order to justify your futile, false, misleading doctrine. You are quick to state that God is master of all - one of the very few things in scripture you have correct - but you then deny our God...yes, deny him..His clear and well known grace toward all of His creation.
You worry more about nonsense such as capitalization and other minor matters than you do the salvation of man...who, of course, only is saved by being 'elected'. Wrong. I truly despise this patently false doctrine you keep waving around as a banner and the way you hide behind God - pretending to speak His truth - to justify your man-made, totally false doctrine of exclusion and a capricious God.
How dare you use God's precious word to promote non-scriptual nonsense from some long-dead european lawyer? How dare you mislead so many in pursuit of this filthy rag of a discredited doctrine? You Calvinists twist and turn the precious Word of God that many have died to preserve, simply to promote some foolish and incorrect pet religious theory that denies God his own love to mankind. You should be ashamed of yourself.
Please stop addressing me. I'm done with you and your stubborn and malicious nonsense. You simply seek to provoke sincere Christians with your sancitimonious blather and your hubris. You are wrong, you follow a false doctrine and I'm confident of my God's love and certainly have no need at all of some pride-driven person babbling at me over the internet about some discredited and God-forsaken religious doctrine that only a fool or a person awash in his own hubris could accept as having any validity.
I will face my Creator with confidence that He is love, not exclusion, not condemnation without hope as you folks embrace. You construct this useless doctrine...borrow it, actually...and when opposed, you display your arrogance and pride with haughty remarks about what I should pray for. This - from a person who denies almighty God His own words from scripture and instead twists meanings to suit some ancient, discredited doctrine! Your arrogance knows no bounds, does it? Surrounded by like-minded Calvinists, you bask in your own - wrongly assumed- religious correctness.
Well brother, enough. You have convinced no one. Your doctrine remains false and contrary to scripture, as it always was, even back in the 1550's when Calvin proposed it. Wrong then, wrong now.
John Calvin has a lot to answer for.
I wonder if Calvinist's ever doubt if you're really 'elected'? Maybe you only 'think' you are. What a way to worship God!
Well, this thread is getting beyond pointless and is about this close to becoming a full-out shouting match. I'm done. I'll let others refute you folks now, not that bibical truth plays any part in your doctrine but at least here you've had to actually work at your false conclusions for a change. Does you good.
Pray for yourself, brother. You are in grave error and mishandling the Word of God. The shame rests on you as you mock God's love and his gift of choice to man in salvation. I fear for those who do what you and your brothers are doing. Capitalization of God's name won't help you much on Judgement Day. Oh, but you're elected. I almost forgot! Never mind.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.