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American Neanderthal?
ABC News ^ | 02-18-2000

Posted on 01/21/2002 5:30:59 AM PST by blam

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To: blam;evolution
indexing
21 posted on 01/21/2002 4:11:53 PM PST by farmfriend
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To: farmfriend
Other articles relating to evolution.
22 posted on 01/21/2002 4:13:31 PM PST by farmfriend
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To: AD from SpringBay
What's baffling is the idiotic federal law that allows "native Americans" to seize and destroy scientific evidence (i.e. bones and artifacts) that are the only way to figure out how and when North America was populated.

When the Taliban destroyed ancient sculpture there was international outrage. When "native Americans" do it it's social justice.

23 posted on 01/21/2002 4:22:44 PM PST by BigBobber
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To: Redcloak
You talk about a dead ringer, that's amazing.
24 posted on 01/21/2002 4:23:16 PM PST by MissAmericanPie
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To: farmfriend
More articles and links: Earliest Americans Seen As More Diverse
25 posted on 01/21/2002 4:54:50 PM PST by blam
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To: MissAmericanPie
Redheads 'are neanderthal'

BY A CORRESPONDENT

RED hair may be the genetic legacy of Neanderthals, scientists believe.

Researchers at the John Radcliffe Institute of Molecular Medicine in Oxford say that the so-called “ginger gene” which gives people red hair, fair skin and freckles could be up to 100,000 years old.

They claim that their discovery points to the gene having originated in Neanderthal man who lived in Europe for 200,000 years before Homo sapien settlers, the ancestors of modern man, arrived from Africa about 40,000 years ago.

Rosalind Harding, the research team leader, said: “The gene is certainly older than 50,000 years and it could be as old as 100,000 years.

“An explanation is that it comes from Neanderthals.” It is estimated that at least 10 per cent of Scots have red hair and a further 40 per cent carry the gene responsible, which could account for their once fearsome reputation as fighters.

Neanderthals have been characterised as migrant hunters and violent cannibals who probably ate most of their meat raw. They were taller and stockier than Homo sapiens, but with shorter limbs, bigger faces and noses, receding chins and low foreheads.

The two species overlapped for a period of time and the Oxford research appears to suggests that they must have successfully interbred for the “ginger gene” to survive. Neanderthals became extinct about 28,000 years ago, the last dying out in southern Spain and southwest France.

26 posted on 01/21/2002 4:59:23 PM PST by blam
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To: blam
That is very interesting, the Bible speaks to me of two different creations of man. The sixth day man, hunter gatherers, made of grey clay, and then Adam and Eve, farmers, made from red clay.

The thing that distinguished Adam and Eve was the ability for their blood to come up into their face, in other words the ability to blush. I am always amazed at the similarities between scriptures and science, like in this instance speaking of two different types of man, but drawing two totally different conclusions.

27 posted on 01/21/2002 5:50:14 PM PST by MissAmericanPie
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To: MissAmericanPie
"I am always amazed at the similarities between scriptures and science."

I agree. I can make them 'work' with each other. However, I never discuss religion on FR. (people always want to argue with me over evolution, I won't)

28 posted on 01/21/2002 6:18:49 PM PST by blam
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To: blam
I got into it once on an evolution thread in an attempt to make people think, but gave it up, it is one of those vain arguments.
29 posted on 01/21/2002 6:20:55 PM PST by MissAmericanPie
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To: MissAmericanPie;blam;Gods, Graves, Glyphs;
I have never heard that story before, guess I am related to Adam and Eve then.

LOL!

To find all articles tagged or indexed using 'Gods, Graves, Glyphs'

Click here: 'Gods, Graves, Glyphs'

30 posted on 01/21/2002 7:17:10 PM PST by Ernest_at_the_Beach
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To: Ernest_at_the_Beach
Thanks Ernest. Good morning bump.
31 posted on 01/22/2002 5:03:53 AM PST by blam
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To: Blood of Tyrants
That was in the 1800's. Forensic science has advanced considerably since then.
32 posted on 01/22/2002 5:09:22 AM PST by ZULU
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To: ShadowAce
?????

There are some problems with radiocarbon dating. The system assumes the percentage of radioactive carbon isotopes in the atmosphere is constant and this has recently been proved to be incorrect. Volcanic eruptions effect radiocarbon dating.

However, the basic PREMISE of the system is correct. We only need to make certain corrections to account for these discrepancies.

There are other problems which appeared in a recent study of the "Shroud of Turin". Apparently some material of organic origins like cloths and tapestries can acquire, over a long time frame, a heavy coating of bioplastic produced by organisms living on the original organic substrate, which can then skew the results to indicate a more recent dating. The solution is to remove the bioplastic before initiating the radiocarbon testing.

The studies I have read indicate ALL early hominid fossils demonstrate a very SHORT life span as well as numerous bone fractures and other kinds of skeletal damage which indicated a very dangerous, rough type of life. I never saw anything to indicate any early hominids lived for "hundreds" of years.

33 posted on 01/22/2002 5:19:11 AM PST by ZULU
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To: BigBobber
This is what happens when we let politics - politically correct politics - dictate scientific policy.
34 posted on 01/22/2002 5:20:42 AM PST by ZULU
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To: Redcloak
Since the actor is question is a left-wing liberal, a primitive connection is most possible.
35 posted on 01/22/2002 5:21:33 AM PST by ZULU
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To: ZULU
And doctor rarely, if ever, get the chance to diagnose ricketts, either. 150-5000 years ago, it was much more common.
36 posted on 01/22/2002 5:45:27 AM PST by Blood of Tyrants
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To: ZULU
There is a non-fiction book ("Buried Alive") written by a dentist who has performed several tests on Neanderthal skulls and jaws. I cannot remember the author's name, but was pretty convincing. Using several pieces of equipment, he came to the conclusion that the skulls of Neanderthals could not be produced in only 40 years (the common accepted lifespan of Neanderthals).
37 posted on 01/22/2002 5:46:51 AM PST by ShadowAce
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To: blam
'First Americans were Australian'

The first Americans were descended from Australian aborigines, according to evidence in a new BBC documentary.

The skulls suggest faces like those of Australian aborigines

The programme, Ancient Voices, shows that the dimensions of prehistoric skulls found in Brazil match those of the aboriginal peoples of Australia and Melanesia. Other evidence suggests that these first Americans were later massacred by invaders from Asia.

Until now, native Americans were believed to have descended from Asian ancestors who arrived over a land bridge between Siberia and Alaska and then migrated across the whole of north and south America. The land bridge was formed 11,000 years ago during the ice age, when sea level dropped.

However, the new evidence shows that these people did not arrive in an empty wilderness. Stone tools and charcoal from the site in Brazil show evidence of human habitation as long ago as 50,000 years.

The site is at Serra Da Capivara in remote northeast Brazil. This area is now inhabited by the descendants of European settlers and African slaves who arrived just 500 years ago.

But cave paintings found here provided the first clue to the existence of a much older people.

The costumes and rituals shown in rock art survived in Terra del Fuego

Images of giant armadillos, which died out before the last ice age, show the artists who drew them lived before even the natives who greeted the Europeans.

These Asian people have facial features described as mongoloid. However, skulls dug from a depth equivalent to 9,000 to 12,000 years ago are very different.

Walter Neves, an archaeologist from the University of Sao Paolo, has taken extensive skull measurements from dozens of skulls, including the oldest, a young woman who has been named Lucia.

"The measurements show that Lucia was anything but mongoloid," he says.

Walter Neves has measured hundreds of skulls

The next step was to reconstruct a face from Lucia's skull. First, a CAT scan of the skull was done, to allow an accurate working model to be made.

Then a forensic artist, Richard Neave from the University of Manchester, UK, created a face for Lucia. The result was surprising: "It has all the features of a negroid face," says Dr Neave.

Lucia's skull is 12,000 years old The skull dimensions and facial features match most closely the native people of Australia and Melanesia. These people date back to about 60,000 years, and were themselves descended from the first humans, who left Africa about 100,000 years ago.

But how could the early Australians have travelled more than 13,500 kilometres (8,450 miles) at that time? The answer comes from more cave paintings, this time from the Kimberley, a region at the northern tip of Western Australia.

Here, Grahame Walsh, an expert on Australian rock art, found the oldest painting of a boat anywhere in the world. The style of the art means it is at least 17,000 years old, but it could be up to 50,000 years old.

And the crucial detail is the high prow of the boat. This would have been unnecessary for boats used in calm, inland waters. The design suggests it was used on the open ocean.

Fantastic voyage

Archaeologists speculate that such an incredible sea voyage, from Australia to Brazil, would not have been undertaken knowingly but by accident.

Just three years ago, five African fishermen were caught in a storm and a few weeks later were washed up on the shores of South America. Two of the fishermen died, but three made it alive.

Walter Neves says the negroid people disappear 7,000 years ago

But if the first Americans had drifted from Australia, where are their descendants now? Again, the skulls suggest an answer.

The shape of the skulls changes between 9,000 and 7,000 years ago from being exclusively negroid to exclusively mongoloid. Combined with rock art evidence of increasing violence at this time, it appears that the mongoloid people from the north invaded and wiped out the original Americans.

Fuegean Cristina Calderon may be one of the few surviving descendants of the first Americans

The only evidence of any survivors comes from Terra del Fuego, the islands at the remotest southern tip of South America.

The pre-European Fuegeans, who lived stone age-style lives until this century, show hybrid skull features which could have resulted from intermarrying between mongoloid and negroid peoples. Their rituals and traditions also bear some resemblance to the ancient rock art in Brazil.

The identity of the first Americans is an emotive and controversial question. But the evidence from Brazil, and a handful of people who still live at the very tip of South America, suggests that the Americas have been home to a greater diversity of humans than previously thought - and for much longer.

38 posted on 01/22/2002 6:05:49 AM PST by blam
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To: ShadowAce
I wonder what was the basis of his conclusion that such bone development could not have occurred within 40 years? Bone growth rates in modern Homo sapiens - the kind of people who live indoors most of the year, work at a desk, and never have to bring their next meal with a hand axe?
39 posted on 01/22/2002 8:10:11 AM PST by ZULU
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To: ZULU
You may be onto something there.

The Neanderthal were almost certainly collectivists, like the British. This is strongly suggested by their inability to form large bands and tribal groups. Being collectivists, they would have had a hard time making efficient use of resources. This would translate into smaller bands; no more than a dozen individuals. A collectivist mindset would also explain the glacial pace of their stone tool development. Such a society would be more inclined to stifle innovation. Neanderthal tools remained nearly static in form for thousands of years.

Cro Magnon, on the other hand, was likely less burdened with these economic hadicaps. Their tool development was explosive compared to Neanderthal. They also were better at exploiting their environment and formed larger bands. This, in turn, would later allow individuals to pursue other forms of labor, such as metallurgy or the production of trade goods. Technical innovation was encouraged and further enriched the society as a whole.

The connection to modern Britain should be abundantly clear!

40 posted on 01/22/2002 8:14:46 AM PST by Redcloak
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