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A HISTORY OF BETRAYAL: The Zionist Establishment of Israel
Myths and Facts ^ | 1-18-2002 | The Orthodox Presbyterian

Posted on 01/18/2002 5:59:49 PM PST by OrthodoxPresbyterian

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To: Nix 2
"...an oxymoron just like a Christian Jew."

Are you suggesting Jews cannot be "Christ-like" (which is all the name "Christian" means)?

Were Peter, S(P)aul, Matthew (Levi), John, James, etc. alive today, they might disagree with you, since all the earliest of Christ's apostles were very much "Christ-like" Jews.

Pity that there are so-called "Christians" who don't live up to their example...

41 posted on 01/19/2002 2:49:27 AM PST by Stingray
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To: OrthodoxPresbyterian
One more thing to add here...

The name "Palestine" is the Romanized word "Philistine" so given to the name of the land Judea after 70 a.d. and the last Jewish diaspora. The Romans under Titus were intent on wiping out every last vestige of Jewish heritage and culture in the land, even to the point of naming it after the Jews' long-sworn enemies, the Philistines!

The fact that there are "Philistines" at war with Israel in the land again is a story older than the Bible itself, but comprehensively documented within its pages.

Later...

42 posted on 01/19/2002 3:00:09 AM PST by Stingray
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Comment #43 Removed by Moderator

To: Stingray
Are you suggesting Jews cannot be "Christ-like" (which is all the name "Christian" means)?

You seem to be forgetting that Christ WAS a Jew. But, no, I was not meaning that at all. What I am saying is that Jews are not Christians. Period.

44 posted on 01/19/2002 5:09:13 AM PST by Nix 2
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To: dennisw
Bump
45 posted on 01/19/2002 6:29:19 AM PST by Valin
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Comment #46 Removed by Moderator

To: OrthodoxPresbyterian
Excellent. Let Islam rule anywhere, this abomination will turn anything, even the Garden of Eden, into a desolation.

I have read that the Muslims cut every tree in the land of Israel during the (some) 13 centuries they ruled there.

47 posted on 01/19/2002 8:01:40 AM PST by crystalk
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To: OrthodoxPresbyterian;dennisw
OP...excellent historical review. Your discussion of the rights inherent to any people for establishing a state was very well done, IMO.

dennisw...thanks for the ping.

48 posted on 01/19/2002 8:11:31 AM PST by beowolf
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Comment #49 Removed by Moderator

To: OrthodoxPresbyterian
Good posts from the jsource always a nice resource. As a aside, with respect to your Calvinist background, I find that interesting. I think it's fair to say that the Puritans were Calvinists. As far as I'm concerned the Puritans led the way in extending tolerance to the Jews in 17th century England (largely having been exluded from England - with some exceptions - since Edward I expelled then in the 13th century) which would serve as a hallmark and model for the American colonies. I'm thinking particularly of Roger Williams and the Delaware Valley and Rhode Island colonies which he founded which further helped move (with all due respect to Hooker and Winthrop) the traditonal Puritan position further along on the issue of the separation of church and state.
50 posted on 01/19/2002 9:34:41 AM PST by Lent
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To: Mr Majestic
You have to understand what's being asserted here. Most of the population distribution was centered in towns and villages. Moreoever, the vast majority of these did not own land. Most of the land was owned by absentee landlords and principally the Ottoman Empire and then the British through the British Mandate. This is the land which was described in the 1921 British Report as being in a barren and uncultivated state which became revived progressively by Jewish land purchases, cultivation and general reform of the land (draining swamps for example), first under the latter part of the Ottoman reign and then accelerated under British administration. Hence, a simple reference to population is misguided since population distribution and land ownership are the key factors:

AN INTERIM REPORT
ON THE
CIVIL ADMINISTRATION
OF

PALESTINE,

during the period
1st JULY, 1920--30th JUNE, 1921.

 

AN INTERIM REPORT
ON THE
CIVIL ADMINISTRATION
OF
PALESTINE.

I.--THE CONDITION OF PALESTINE AFTER THE WAR.

When General Allenby's army swept over Palestine, in a campaign as brilliant and decisive as any recorded in history, it occupied a country exhausted by war. The population had been depleted; the people of the towns were in severe distress; much cultivated land was left untilled; the stocks of cattle and horses had fallen to a low ebb; the woodlands, always scanty, had almost disappeared; orange groves had been ruined by lack of irrigation; commerce had long been at a standstill. A Military Administration was established to govern the country. For nearly two years it laboured, with great devotion, at its restoration. An administrative system, as efficient as the conditions allowed, was set up. The revenue authorised by the Turkish law was collected, and was spent on the needs of the country. A considerable sum, advanced by the Anglo-Egyptian Bank, was lent by the Government in small amounts to the agriculturists, and enabled them to purchase stock and seed, and partly to restore their cultivation. Philanthropic agencies in other countries came to the relief of the most necessitous. Commerce began to revive. It was encouraged by the new railway connection with Egypt, established during the campaign for purposes of military transport. It was assisted also by the construction, with the same object, of a net-work of good roads. The country showed all the signs of gradually returning life.

http://www.eretzyisroel.org/~jkatz/herbert.html

51 posted on 01/19/2002 10:33:03 AM PST by Lent
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To: Mr Majestic
I myself do not buy into those figures. I would say there had been almost that many Jews (say 15-20M) at the population nadir in about 1798; I would have said some 54,000 by 1881.

As to Arabs, I am not sure there were more than some 700,000 even by 1948, and if so then both because of immigration and birth rate, the number in 1881 is probably only some 150-200M if indeed not just 100-120M.

Lets look for better statistics, that one is highly suspect. The 24M Jews looks like just the Zionist yishuv, without the earlier Jewish population. The Arab figure looks like the entire population, incl Christians and Jews and yishuv.

52 posted on 01/19/2002 10:37:10 AM PST by crystalk
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To: crystalk
The figures are from Jsource a reliable source of info. However, the map used is probably more illustative of one view of the population composition. Notice the rather curious figure 470,000 in 1881 for Arabs (again, by the way, for population purposes the authorities usually didn't distinguish what "Arabs" meant - i.e., could refer to Circassians, Bosnians, Turks, Persians, etc., i.e., relatively recent immigrants particularly with the breakup of the Ottoman Empire and resettlement by them) and only to 500,000 by 1914?

Peters notes that according to the French geographer Vital Cuinet the population of Western Palestine by 1895 had grown to more than 495,000, "of which Muslims numbered roughly 252,000 throughout Western Palestine.

1882: 141,000 "settled" Muslims

1895: 252,000 "settled" Muslims

The above figures for the Muslim population would indicate that their numbers almost doubled in the thirteen years between 1882 and 1895". Peters states that the only variable which could account for the large 1895 figure would be an approx. 82,000 increase by virtue of "Arab" immigration coinciding with the Jewish development (this is assuming a high rate of natural increase) (p. 244 of her book).

53 posted on 01/19/2002 11:33:10 AM PST by Lent
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To: crystalk, monkeyshine
Further, according to Peters (p. 244)
the total population when Jewish colonization began (1872-882) was between 300,000 and 400,000 souls, according to the most reliable estimates. Thirty-four thousand were Jews, living largely in their four "holy cities." Less than half the population was "settled" Muslim, 65,000 were Bedouin-nomadic, and roughly 55,000 were Christians. Thus the total of roughly 200,000 Muslims were living in all of Western Palestine in 1882.

54 posted on 01/19/2002 11:40:40 AM PST by Lent
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To: Mr Majestic
Lets pretend that those figures are accurate on the Arab population. Thank you so much for providing pro-Israel documentation.

What do you think was the population of Egypt at the time? Syria?

In all the "land of Israel" so few Arabs. Why?

How was it that poor Jews with literally nothing could expand old towns and build brand new ones?

Could it be that it was, if anything, like the American West. A desolate place for the taking by those who were willing to work and bleed?

If you are to believe current Arab propaganda about what an important land it is for them, why didn't they flock there in the millions when they had centuries of opportunity, as Jews did when ever they were able.

55 posted on 01/19/2002 12:24:24 PM PST by Sabramerican
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To: crystalk
the Muslims cut every tree in the land of Israel during the (some) 13 centuries they ruled there.

Now the Pals try to burn down the forests the Jews planted in Israel.

from Fire Causes

The first and most important cause of forest fires in Israel is arson (Table 2). In the 1980s and early 1990s arson comprised about one-third of all forest fires in Israel -- a very large proportion. Some of the sources for this arson were identified as the work of criminals whose sole aim was to collect insurance money. Many cases of arson in the late 1980s, however, were directly related to the Palestinian uprising (Intifada). Palestinians used fire as a means of their resistance movement as early as the 1920s, 1930s and 1940s, but in the 1980s it was adopted as a highly visible action against the Israeli occupation in the West Bank. Arson was found to be easy to execute: all one had to do was cross the old border, which was unguarded and open to all, start a fire in one of the many forests which straddle the mountainous areas near the border, and then disappear. The occurrence of forest fires in areas adjacent to the old "Green Line" border between Israel and the West Bank was very frequent: in the years 1988-1990 between 288 and 388 forest fires were caused by arson and took place in areas near the old pre-1967 border (Kliot and Keidar 1992). In some of the fires which took place in northern Israel, Israeli Arab Palestinians were found to be responsible. These fires were extremely remarkable because 1988 was also rich in precipitation and, as a result, the vegetation concentration was highly combustible. Intifada-induced arson gradually faded out as the uprising started to die out in the early 1990s.

but commenced again in Intifada II Sept 2000.

56 posted on 01/19/2002 3:34:03 PM PST by anapikoros
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To: crystalk
Pre 1921 population figures for Palestine included both sides of the Jordan River. British figures for 1921 put the number of Arabs on the East Bank (that part which became Jordan) at about 200,000.

On the installation of Hussein as Emir the population of Jordan dropped by an estimated 30-50% due to emigration to the West Bank where there was much more economic opportunity and the fear of harsh rule and taxation by the new Hashemite rulers.

57 posted on 01/19/2002 3:46:02 PM PST by anapikoros
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To: Demidog
One cannot fault the Jordanians or Israelis for not wanting the Palestinians. Arafat and the PLO tried to overthrow the Jordanian government in the bloody fighting of September, 1970 and they have never failed to try to kill Israelis when the opporunity was offered, as when they controled southern Lebanon.

The fact that no one "wants" them is NOT justification for the establishement of a Palestinian state in the West Bank and Gaza, which will very obviously be used for attacks on Israel and the murder of Israelis. It would be like allowing Al Qaida to establish a state in northern Mexico.

58 posted on 01/19/2002 4:44:04 PM PST by Magician
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To: Magician
the establishement of a Palestinian state in the West Bank and Gaza, which will very obviously be used for attacks on Israel and the murder of Israelis. It would be like allowing Al Qaida to establish a state in northern Mexico.

Or in New Mexico, to fiddle with the analogy a bit.

59 posted on 01/19/2002 4:56:54 PM PST by OrthodoxPresbyterian
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To: OrthodoxPresbyterian
Jordan = Arab Palestine = TransJordan.

Ping!

60 posted on 01/19/2002 5:12:51 PM PST by rdb3
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