A HISTORY OF BETRAYAL: The Zionist Establishment of Israel

Myths and Facts ^ | 1-18-2002 | The Orthodox Presbyterian

[OrthodoxPresbyterian]

You declare, my friend, that you do not hate the Jews, you are merely "anti-Zionist." And I say, let the truth ring forth from the high mountain tops, let it echo through the valleys of God's green earth: When people criticize "Zionism", they mean Jews -- this is God's own truth. -- Dr. Martin Luther King, jr.

[Objectivism USA]

Good post

[OrthodoxPresbyterian]

Good post

Thanks.

And as a staunch Libertarian (Calvinist, not Objectivist), I will hasten to add that I am not an advocate of US military involvement in the Middle East and I am never an advocate of Foreign Aid. The Zionist Claim to Jewish Palestine (which is the entirety of greater Israel from the Jordan to the Mediterranean) may be 100% in the Legal Right... but they are not, Constitutionally, an American State.

But THAT said... the Zionist Claim is 100% in the Legal Right.

[Pharmboy]

Thanks for the post, OP. Nice job.

[Fzob]

bump

[OrthodoxPresbyterian]

Your history is flawed....using the same illogical reasoning you used (British) than America belongs to the Indians. 4 posted on 1/18/02 7:16 PM Pacific by sfrgrabn333

Not at all.

A proper analogy would be if the Indians had legally contracted to permit the establishment of an American Nation in a tiny sliver of the American Continent (say, Delaware), in which region a substantial minority of Americans had lived for thousands of years...

...and then, when time came for the Americans to establish their State, the Indians broke all their Covenants and declared that they were going to murder the American race (as the Arabs attempted upon the Jews).

THAT would be a fitting analogy.

[Objectivism USA]

I would put it even simpler; Israel's government has the support of the majority of people living in present Israel. A government with popular support is a legitimate government; a government without it is not.

[satchmodog9]

The leftists argue that America is the big imperialist state with a bad foriegn policy. Half of these leftists come from Europe and all I ever see is the fact that England, France,Portugal,Italy and Spain were the great imperialists. Why is the world allowed to forget about the transgressions of Europe and call the US the great satan. The world blames the US for the mideast peace problems when it is really the fault of the UK. The problems of India and Pakistan and half of Africa are also creations of failed UK foriegn policy. The creation of the seperate state of Israel was about the only good thing to come from the policies of the UK in this region. The real truth of the matter is that the arabs have one goal in life and they have always had it. The destruction of Israel is the only thing keeping these people going. The free nation of Israel is a testimony to the strong will and the moral fiber of the Jews. The arabs should remember that the Jews are Gods chosen people(according to them). If this is true then I would hate to see a people that God was pissed at. Long live Israel and any other free nation.

[OrthodoxPresbyterian]

I would put it even simpler; Israel's government has the support of the majority of people living in present Israel. A government with popular support is a legitimate government; a government without it is not. 8 posted on 1/18/02 7:25 PM Pacific by Objectivism USA

Trouble is, if you kicked out all the Jews (or the Arabs just killed them all), there would no longer be a majority of people in Israel supporting the present government. And some people argue that the Jews have no Right to be there in the first place.

So, I hashed this together to address the issue of legal right.

[OrthodoxPresbyterian]

A while back (over a year, if memory serves) I promised you a thread on modern Israeli history.

Here ya go....

[spanky_mcfarland]

"The population and wealth of Palestine has not increased during the last forty years..."

The same could be said (in terms of the population and likely wealth as well) of West Virginia...maybe we should void all property ownership in this state and re-establish it as a religious state for Moonies, Wiccans, Sun cultists...

Proof that WV population has shrunk 1959-1999 justifying the voiding of all property rights and further justifying/mandating we hand it over to a religion to be named later.

[x]

This is propagandistic, superficial, selectively skewed and unconvincing. It begins with the assumption that Zionism is right and ends by portraying everyone who disagreed as wrong and evil. One can certainly criticize Palestinian conduct, but we would not react so differently from the Palestinians if someone declared that our land was their god-given ancestral homeland and the site of a state which they would rule. There are hundreds of books written on the Middle East. Reading more of them may not change your views, but it would convey the nuances and difficulties of the situation that this article ignores or denies.

[OrthodoxPresbyterian]

The same could be said (in terms of the population and likely wealth as well) of West Virginia...maybe we should void all property ownership in this state and re-establish it as a religious state for Moonies, Wiccans, Sun cultists... Proof that WV population has shrunk 1959-1999 justifying the voiding of all property rights and further justifying/mandating we hand it over to a religion to be named later. 12 posted on 1/18/02 9:04 PM Pacific by spanky_mcfarland

This is not a question of property Rights. I acknowledge the property Rights of Palestinian Arabs, and disapprove of their abrogation by Jewish Palestinians.

This is a question of national sovereignty. Israel, Jewish Palestine, enjoys rightful Sovereignty claim to the West Bank. If Arab Palestinians feel that the important thing is their property rights, then they need to acknowledge that the West Bank is within the rightful sovereign borders of Israel, cease their armed revolt, and demand that Israel protect their Rights. IF, on the other hand, they feel that it is more important to live in a racially-arab "Palestinian Arab State"... there already is one, and they can move there.

Jordan = Arab Palestine

[OrthodoxPresbyterian]

This is propagandistic, superficial, selectively skewed and unconvincing.

Horse-hockey.

It begins with the assumption that Zionism is right and ends by portraying everyone who disagreed as wrong and evil.

Nope. It begins by assuming that the Arab Nationalists agreed to the Zionist request for one sliver of the Middle East....
...which they did.

The Arab Nationalists got their independent Arab Nations; they must stick by the deal, and acknowledge Jewish Palestinian rightful sovereignty over Jewish Palestine's independent Nation: Israel.

A deal is a deal.

[Objectivism USA]

Trouble is, if you kicked out all the Jews (or the Arabs just killed them all), there would no longer be a majority of people in Israel supporting the present government. And some people argue that the Jews have no Right to be there in the first place.

So, I hashed this together to address the issue of legal right.

I agree with that. I like most people tend to believe that Countries that are older than I am are legitimate, changes during my lifetime are debatable.

[OrthodoxPresbyterian]

I like most people tend to believe that Countries that are older than I am are legitimate, changes during my lifetime are debatable.

I think that's true of most of us.

I am German by ethnic heritage, and enjoy studying German history, but it's probably not a good idea to re-visit German claims to Prussia and Silesia, ceded to Poland by Soviet administration well before my time.

They've been Polish a little while now, the last dust-up over the matter got kinda messy....

[RnMomof7]

Good work OP..BTTT

[Demidog]

I have a bit of a problem with the assessment that "The British" encouraged the Arabs to attack Israel. It almost seems as if you (or somebody else) are saying that the Zionists were tricked into moving into the region so that they could be slaughtered by the Arabs.

The League of Nations in adopting the Balfour declaration placed a preference upon rightfull heritage. Certainly you make good points about the size of the region which this covered and what actually was ceded.

But also it must be noted that there are a group of people who refer to themselves as Palestinians who are in limbo. Jordan doesn't want them and neither does Israel. For the prior 1300 years both were oppressed by the successive empires that controlled the region. So it wasn't exactly historical truth to place the Jews at odds with their Arab brethren.

The finer point you make is of course that Israel has a right to exist. Saying otherwise is tantamount to anti-Semitism since they of course exist and the last 80 years of international decision making has been in their legal favor in regards to Nationhood.

It is also true that Palestinians have a right to their own state. And if Jordan isn't going to cede that they are under their jurisdiction and protect their rights, then who is and where are they going to reside?

That Israel has been brutal to the Palestinians is an understatement as would be the same statement in reverse.

I certainly do not condone either. But I appreciate this post.

[Brad C.]

In 1921, Colonial Secretary Winston Churchill severed nearly four-fifths of Palestine-some 35,000 square miles-to create a brand new Arab emirate, Transjordan.

Strange isn't it. Back in 1921, 4/5ths of their country is taken away and given to another country, yet they don't refer to it as "Occupied territory" nor do they stake any claim on it. One would think they would be a lot more excited about losing so much land by the edict of a foriegn country.