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To: OrthodoxPresbyterian
I have a bit of a problem with the assessment that "The British" encouraged the Arabs to attack Israel. It almost seems as if you (or somebody else) are saying that the Zionists were tricked into moving into the region so that they could be slaughtered by the Arabs.

The League of Nations in adopting the Balfour declaration placed a preference upon rightfull heritage. Certainly you make good points about the size of the region which this covered and what actually was ceded.

But also it must be noted that there are a group of people who refer to themselves as Palestinians who are in limbo. Jordan doesn't want them and neither does Israel. For the prior 1300 years both were oppressed by the successive empires that controlled the region. So it wasn't exactly historical truth to place the Jews at odds with their Arab brethren.

The finer point you make is of course that Israel has a right to exist. Saying otherwise is tantamount to anti-Semitism since they of course exist and the last 80 years of international decision making has been in their legal favor in regards to Nationhood.

It is also true that Palestinians have a right to their own state. And if Jordan isn't going to cede that they are under their jurisdiction and protect their rights, then who is and where are they going to reside?

That Israel has been brutal to the Palestinians is an understatement as would be the same statement in reverse.

I certainly do not condone either. But I appreciate this post.

19 posted on 01/18/2002 10:58:53 PM PST by Demidog
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To: Demidog
It is also true that Palestinians have a right to their own state.

Out of curiosity, what is your criteria for those who do and do not have the right to their own state?

21 posted on 01/18/2002 11:14:47 PM PST by dell Arpa
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To: Demidog
I have a bit of a problem with the assessment that "The British" encouraged the Arabs to attack Israel. It almost seems as if you (or somebody else) are saying that the Zionists were tricked into moving into the region so that they could be slaughtered by the Arabs.

More like Balfour wanted British Zionist political support in World War I, and once the war was one, certain unscrupulous Colonial Office types fell back on their time-honored practice of playing the "natives" off against eachother.

Divide and Rule.

24 posted on 01/19/2002 12:11:29 AM PST by OrthodoxPresbyterian
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To: Demidog, tex-oma
The finer point you make is of course that Israel has a right to exist. Saying otherwise is tantamount to anti-Semitism since they of course exist and the last 80 years of international decision making has been in their legal favor in regards to Nationhood.... But also it must be noted that there are a group of people who refer to themselves as Palestinians who are in limbo. Jordan doesn't want them and neither does Israel... It is also true that Palestinians have a right to their own state. And if Jordan isn't going to cede that they are under their jurisdiction and protect their rights, then who is and where are they going to reside?

Simply as a point of legal rectitude, Arab Palestine -- Jordan -- should grant citizenship to any and all Arab Palestinians for the asking. It's Jordan's 1921 raison d'etre, after all; just isn't kosher to shut the Palestinians out.

Okay, that point made, let's consider the next question... what about the West Bank palestinians who don't want to move to Jordan (assuming Jordan opened the gates to any who did)?

I do not necessarily agree that the Palestinians have a "right" to "their own state", even granting the following:

I don't think that this is entirely fair; we should at least modify our consideration by asking, "How 'brutal' would the Israeli administration be if a large number (majority?) of the Palestinians weren't calling for the liquidation of the Israeli State and Race?" Israeli brutality hasn't happened in a vacuum; if the Palestinians' kindergartens weren't teaching innocent children that Allah lusts for the flesh of Jews medium-rare, and the Israelis were still treating the Palies as they are, that would be truly heinous. As it is, the Palies' bloodlust makes it an ethical mess.

But let's go deeper, and look at your criteria for Statehood:

Not good enough. In fact, not even good enough if the Israeli administration is "brutal".

Oppressive Governance is a necessary pre-condition for a Right of Revolution (i.e., tyrannical governments, not just ones, should be overthrown or seceded from), but it is not a sufficient condition. You must also be offering the people a better alternative. To illustrate my point: the record of History should prefer the Czar to the Communists. The Czar killed his thousands, but the Communists killed their millions. Therefore, the Communists were not in the Right in fomenting Revolution; though the Czar was oppressive, they sought (and did succeed) to bring about something far worse. Unlike the American Revolutionists, who were Freedom Fighters who sought to exchange Monarchy for Republic, the Russian Communist Revolutionists sought to exchange Murder on a comparatively small scale for murder on a grand scale. They were, therefore, not Freedom Fighters, but insurrectionist terrorists (who unfortunately won).

So you must have a proximate cause (oppression)...AND a better alternative...
...For your Right of Revolution to be Just.

25 posted on 01/19/2002 12:13:34 AM PST by OrthodoxPresbyterian
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To: Demidog, tex-oma
Continuing..



The present Palestinian insurrection fails the test (horribly). Even if we grant their proximate cause (which is not entirely fair, we should see how Israel behaves when jewish school-buses aren't getting machine-gunned) of "oppressive Israeli governance", look at the Palestinian Revolutionists:

(All of which doesn't even address the fact that these groups have more or less promised Aggressive War against Israel upon the formation of a sovereign State... not a particularly good sign in itself.)

Now, it would be one thing if the Palestinians had a group of Resistors who were quoting "the Rights of Man" and singing the praises of Constitutional Republicanism while not machine-gunning schoolbuses full of Jewish children. If Palestinian Revolutionists were truly offering their people anything better than the Israeli administration, and the Israelis were still bull-dozing their houses, then you've got both Proximate Cause (oppression) and Righteous Alternative (a better promise) for just revolution.

But that ain't the case at all.

It's one thing to, on general human-rights principles, condemn the oppressions of the Czar in this case (if we want to cast Israel in that role). But to endorse the Palestinian demand for statehood given their current crop of Revolutionists would be tantamount not only to criticizing the Czar, and supporting the Red October Communists against him.

For the Palestinians to have a just Right of Revolution, two things must happen:

Under such conditions, the rule of the "Czar" (Israel) must be preferred to the terrorist insurrection of the "Red October Revolutionists" (Hamas, Jihad, PFLP, and PLO). To the outside observer, It's actually the least overall Rights-oppressive option for the average Palestinian.

And that will remain the case until the Palestinians themselves (it's their responsibility) bring forth Independence Representatives who are not proposing to replace Oppression with Utter Tyranny.

And as long as Palestinian "educational TV" teaches palestinian kiddies that the Jews are a sub-human virus to be exterminated from the earth, I don't see that happening. Ever.

Crappy, but true.

26 posted on 01/19/2002 12:19:17 AM PST by OrthodoxPresbyterian
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To: Demidog
One cannot fault the Jordanians or Israelis for not wanting the Palestinians. Arafat and the PLO tried to overthrow the Jordanian government in the bloody fighting of September, 1970 and they have never failed to try to kill Israelis when the opporunity was offered, as when they controled southern Lebanon.

The fact that no one "wants" them is NOT justification for the establishement of a Palestinian state in the West Bank and Gaza, which will very obviously be used for attacks on Israel and the murder of Israelis. It would be like allowing Al Qaida to establish a state in northern Mexico.

58 posted on 01/19/2002 4:44:04 PM PST by Magician
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