Question to homeschool advocates

[Diago]

But what about this?

Homeschooling Flop Raises Socialization Concerns

[No Truce With Kings]

I think what you are seeing is the bell curve in action. Just because most homeschool kids do well, does not mean all do well. These kids represent the bottom of a curve.

My feeling is that the price you have to pay for excellence is the right to fail. Some kids will do poorly homeschooling but for every one that does poorly 10-20 are going to do better than the kids in public school. If you regulate homeschooling to deal with the exception, rather than the rule, then you are going to kill homeschooling.

Basically, I would agree to more stringent controls on homeschooling only if those controls applied to schools as well. You know -- if a school has one or two underperforming kids, shut the school down. Unreasonable? Sure, but no more reasonable than messing with a system that yields good results.

[Thoeting]

They will go beyond 6th grade; I am just anxious for them that they get to that level before needing to go on to high school. At that point the reading material will be significantly above them. They are such nice kids and they deserve success.

[Khepera]

Why would home school parents want to see how their kids measure up to the standards of some outside authority that they are rejecting in the first place?

[Dallas]

If a parent fails at homeschooling, only their children will suffer. Juxtaposed with a public school teacher where many are affected.

The ratio of failing students in the public system is overwhelming to that of homeschoolers. Over-crowded classrooms, no discipline, etc.

Why worry about a drip when there's a flood going on ?

[cookcounty]

"They claim to have doing a curriculum from ABeka..."

Are you saying all 5 families were using this curriculum? ABeka accounts for probably less than 5% of all homeschooling. Seems odd that they's all be using this curriculum.

[savedbygrace]

My wife and I headed up the local home school group for a few years, and my experience is the opposite of yours.

We got calls from a large number of parents of public school kids who had failed there and the school officials actually told them to call us because their kids should try homeschooling.

IOW, the public schools were pawning off their failures to the HSers. My impression was that they wanted to make homeschoolers look bad by having the failures join us.

BTW, we always dissuaded them.

(The real strange one was the series of calls we got from a 15 YO girl who wanted to be homeschooled. We kept asking for her parents to call us back. Instead, she would call us back. I think she wanted to do it on her own, if we would provide the study materials.)

[twyn1]

Then do all you can for them now and stop worrying about what happened before... esp. those kids that are coming from homes that have recently "broken up" (which could explain some of their problems--hard to perform at your best when your world's been shaken)

[EODGUY]

Until I have convincing evidence to the contrary, I am going to consider your thread genuine and sincere.

I think for the most part, our public school system is abhorrent in many ways. But I also know there are public school teachers who are dedicated and refuse to promulagate a liberal, historically misrepresenting curriculum.

Having said that, the friends I know who homeschool their children do so with dedication and skill. Their children are well-adapted both socially and academically.

Based on my minimal experience, I believe the students to whom you refer are atypical, to say the very least. I am not naive enough to contend that every parent who homeschools is without deficiency, nor does every homeschooled child possess the same level of intelligence. I am willing to bet, however, that in the vast majority of instances, a homeschooled student performs at a much higher level than his/her public school educated counterpart.

Please do not assume that your assessment of the academic/social skills of the children to whom you refer is at all typical of all homeschooled children. Statistics and observed performance prove the opposite.

[Thoeting]

Actually you bring up a very interesting point. I teach in Virginia and according to the new standards of learning, if a school district or school fails to meet a certain set of benchmarks, certification will be pulled. These (along with scores of other regulations) are scheduled to be fully implemented in 2007.

Personally, I think it's smoke and mirrors and a lawsuit waiting to happen. What if a student makes all passing grades and fails the SOL's? Will he really be denied a diploma? Would the state government de-certify a school system on the level of Richmond city schools? It would devastate the economy.

But at least the politicians look like they are doing something.

[Khepera]

What about that?

[SuziQ]

On average, homeschoolers do better than public-schoolers on standardized tests. Some will do worse. A lot depends on the competence of the homeschooling parent.

A lot also depends on the type of homeschooling that is being done. Some parents opt for 'unschooling' or 'child directed learning' in which they don't really teach many skills until the children decide they want to know them. That's a little too loosey goosey for me. I want my kids to be well educated in ALL the basics and be well rounded in other things as well. If I waited for THEM to tell me what they wanted to learn, I'd be waiting a long time! Of course they have their interests; our 12 yr. old son is a wiz with Legos and the robots he builds and programs with them, but doing that won't help him learn to spell or speak in a grammatically correct way. And it won't help him learn higher math operations which WILL get him ahead when he wants to be an Engineer! And our daughter has decided she wants to learn Japanese, but she won't be able to do this by herself and I certainly can't help her, so we'll enroll her in a 'Japan school' which teaches Japanese to English speaking students. I know my limitations, and when there is something I don't know, I'll find someone who does to teach it to my kids.

Sounds like these kids, especially the ones from the divorce situation, got the short end of the the stick when it came to attention from their parents, academically or personally.

[Lizavetta]

I took my children out of public school because even though they were SUPERVISED by every agency known to public education the school had FAILED to teach my children how to READ properly.

This is EXACTLY why I cringe when I read articles that cry for more regulation and oversight of homeschooling. There is little on this planet that is more regulated than government schools and yet they turn out disasters and failures. Why oh why do people continue to have faith that regulation and oversight will fix anything???

And why, when homeschoolers show a preference for adults and an aversion to govt. school students, do we assume that something is wrong with them? To me, it shows that something is RIGHT with them, considering how coarse and vulgar many of today's students are.

[Khepera]

Basically, I would agree to more stringent controls on homeschooling only if those controls applied to schools as well.

You sure are eager to bargain away my rights as an American and for what? You’re trying to decide what my kids learn and it’s none of your concern. Are you one of those moderate conservatives that have contributed to flushing my rights as a free American?

[lizma]

My kids go to a good public school (gobs of parent involvement & quite a few BUSH bumper stickers in the teacher's parking lot last November)but I still homeschool in the evenings and the summer using ABeka. I don't see how these kids can't read using this curriculum, it's dependent on it, plus it starts cursive before the public schools starts it.

If you seen previous work and they could do it, maybe something else is the problem? I volunteer teach a little at my kid's school. Twice I've seen transferred students from other public schools more or less refuse to do the work. I don't know why. Some sort of secondary gain?

It appears these children need to be held back until they catch up or adjust.

Now here's the big question. Is your school willing to do this? Maybe their parents failed them, but will the public school system fail them too?

[Lizavetta]

My daughter noticed a folder her mom prepared for her English assignments marked "litrature."

So where did the mom get her education? A government school, perhaps? Hmmmmm?

I have a friend who doesn't want to homeschool because she feels herself inadequate; her words are "because I'm lame."

To which I say, "And you're sending your kids to the same system that made you lame because.....?"

[Khepera]

I read your post in full. I don't have a problem I'm just filling you in. If you don't understand it may be due to your public education.

[Doctor Doom]

Why should homeschooling be YOUR business and not mine?

The only homeschooling that is my business is that of my children.

[aruanan]

Everyone one of the 5 that I work with have "iffy" social skills. None are [sic] comfortable around [sic] large groups, and 3 of them are actually afraid of the other kids. All of them prefer to be with the adults.

How are they at subject/verb agreement? Viz, "None are". Your definition of social skills is "iffy". It's a bad thing for children to spend most of their waking lives in a large group of kids who are just as clueless as they are and only minimally supervised by an adult. Children do not possess innate social skills which require only their being together with others of their age cohort to spring into wondrous and full flower. Well, they do possess an innate selfishness which, when combined with innate intelligence, enables them to be clever savages adept at seeking their own way at the expense of others. It is only through acculturation into the adult world through meaningful interaction with adults (one teacher per 20-25 students doesn't count as meaningful interaction) that they will learn to think outside the box of their own will.

Better that they prefer to be with adults since most of them will be adults most of their lives and interact mostly with adults. The problem with too many adults now is that they've spent so little of their childhood learning how to become one. You can thank two long-term trends for this: 1. The trend to start grouping kids with large groups of their age cohorts at increasingly earlier ages for an increasingly longer time before ever having to become integrated into the adult world (this began in earnest in the early 20th century through the public school movement and has been extended in the last twenty years by insisting "To get a good job you need a good education" and meaning by that "You need to go to college".). 2. The trend to prevent children from having employment and training in the adult world (begun about the same time as the public school movement and by many of the same people whose motives were admittedly social engineering in nature) coupled with the creation of an entire children's universe (begun in earnest in the late 50's and really becoming monster business in the last two decades) that tries to hold onto them and milk them for every dollar possible ("I don't want to grow up. I'm a ToysRUs kid."). If they live in a child-centric world created for the purpose of keeping there as long as possible by extreme levels of gratification with little demanded in return, it's no wonder they are so reluctant to leave it and are still adolescents at thirty years of age.

I think that anyone who is "comfortable" in large groups is a little wacko anyway, unless you're talking about church or a sports event. But even in these, you're usually with only a few people out of the entire mass of attendees. One can't be sociable with more than one or a very few people at a time anyway. Those who think that is possible or who think it is a good thing to feel comfortable "around" large groups is too given to herd mentality for his own good.

As far as the distribution of ability goes in your very small sample, you're unwarranted in drawing any conclusions about homeschooled kids at large. Those who homeschool are already a select group. Those who try it for a while and then go back to public schools are an even more select group.

[rabbitdog]

Did you say you teach English to kids with learning disabilities? Do these kids have learning disabilities? You missed that point. Or were they given to you because "they were so far behind"? Normally, homeschooled children would not be placed in a public school with a teacher who teachers disabled children. Were the children tested before they were placed where they are? One didn't recognize cursive writing? Hardly a reason to put them in a learning disability class. I'm 38 and stopped using cursive writing years ago. I think my cursive writing is sloppy so don't use it and especially since PC's have come along. Why do kids learn cursive writing anyway? What use is it? Kids learn to read print so that's what they naturally learn to write first. Cursive writing is foreign because you barely see it used anywhere. But anyway, the other 4 children I can't amswer for. Unless they were already disabled, which you didn't mention, they are probably about where they should be.