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Six Myths About Libertarianism
lewrockwell.com ^ | Jan. 15, 2002 | by Murray N. Rothbard

Posted on 01/15/2002 6:27:04 AM PST by tberry

Six Myths About Libertarianism

by Murray N. Rothbard

This article, first published in Modern Age, 24, 1 (Winter 1980), pp. 9-15, as "Myth and Truth About Libertarianism," is based on a paper presented at the April 1979 national meeting of the Philadelphia Society in Chicago. The theme of the meeting was "Conservatism and Libertarianism."

LIBERTARIANISM is the fastest growing political creed in America today. Before judging and evaluating libertarianism, it is vitally important to find out precisely what that doctrine is, and, more particularly, what it is not. It is especially important to clear up a number of misconceptions about libertarianism that are held by most people, and particularly by conservatives. In this essay I shall enumerate and critically analyze the most common myths that are held about libertarianism. When these are cleared away, people will then be able to discuss libertarianism free of egregious, myths and misconceptions, and to deal with it as it should be – on its very own merits or demerits.

Myth #1 Libertarians believe that each individual is an isolated, hermetically sealed atom, acting in a vacuum without influencing each other.

This is a common charge, but a highly puzzling one. In a lifetime of reading libertarian and classical liberal literature, I have not come across a single theorist or writer who holds anything like this position. The only possible exception is the fanatical Max Stirner, a mid-19th century German individualist who, however, has had minimal influence upon libertarianism in his time and since. Moreover, Stirner’s explicit "Might Makes Right" philosophy and his repudiation of all moral principles including individual rights as "spooks in the head," scarcely qualifies him as a libertarian in any sense. Apart from Stirner, however, there is no body of opinion even remotely resembling this common indictment.

Libertarians are methodological and political individualists, to be sure. They believe that only individuals think, value, act, and choose. They believe that each individual has the right to own his own body, free of coercive interference. But no individualist denies that people are influencing each other all the time in their goals, values, pursuits and occupations. As F.A. Hayek pointed out in his notable article, "The Non-Sequitur of the ‘Dependence Effect,’" John Kenneth Galbraith’s assault upon free-market economics in his best-selling The Affluent Society rested on this proposition: economics assumes that every individual arrives at his scale of values totally on his own, without being subject to influence by anyone else. On the contrary, as Hayek replied, everyone knows that most people do not originate their own values, but are influenced to adopt them by other people.1 No individualist or libertarian denies that people influence each other all the time, and surely there is nothing wrong with this inevitable process. What libertarians are opposed to is not voluntary persuasion, but the coercive imposition of values by the use of force and police power. Libertarians are in no way opposed to the voluntary cooperation and collaboration between individuals: only to the compulsory pseudo-"cooperation" imposed by the State.

Myth #2 Libertarians are libertines: they are hedonists who hanker after "alternative life-styles."

This myth has recently been propounded by Irving Kristol, who identifies the libertarian ethic with the "hedonistic" and asserts that libertarians "worship the Sears Roebuck catalogue and all the ‘alternative life styles’ that capitalist affluence permits the individual to choose from."2 The fact is that libertarianism is not and does not pretend to be a complete moral, or aesthetic theory; it is only a political theory, that is, the important subset. of moral theory that deals with the proper role of violence in social life. Political theory deals with what is proper or improper for government to do, and government is distinguished from every other group in society as being the institution of organized violence. Libertarianism holds that the only proper role of violence is to defend person and property against violence, that any use of violence that goes beyond such just defense is itself aggressive, unjust, and criminal. Libertarianism, therefore, is a theory which states that everyone should be free of violent invasion, should he free to do as he sees fit except invade the person or property of another. What a person does with his or her life is vital and important, but is simply irrelevant to libertarianism.

It should not be surprising, therefore, that there are libertarians who are indeed hedonists and devotees of alternative life-styles, and that there are also libertarians who are firm adherents of "bourgeois" conventional or religious morality. There are libertarian libertines and there are libertarians who cleave firmly to the disciplines of natural or religious law. There are other libertarians who have no moral theory at all apart from the imperative of non-violation of rights. That is because libertarianism per se has no general or personal moral theory. Libertarianism does not offer a way of life; it offers liberty, so that each person is free to adopt and act upon his own values and moral principles. Libertarians agree with Lord Acton that "liberty is the highest political end" – not necessarily the highest end on everyone's personal scale of values.

There is no question about the fact, however, that the subset of libertarians who are free-market economists tends to be delighted when the free market leads to a wider range of choices for consumers, and thereby raises their standard of living. Unquestionably, the idea that prosperity is better than grinding poverty is a moral proposition, and it ventures into the realm of general moral theory, but it is still not a proposition for which I should wish to apologize.

Myth #3 Libertarians do not believe in moral principles; they limit themselves to cost-benefit analysis on the assumption that man is always rational.

This myth is of course related to the preceding charge of hedonism, and some of it can be answered in the same way. There are indeed libertarians, particularly Chicago-school economists, who refuse to believe that liberty and individual rights are moral principles, and instead attempt to arrive at public policy by weighing alleged social costs and benefits.

In the first place, most libertarians are "subjectivists" in economics, that is, they believe that the utilities and costs of different individuals cannot be added or measured. Hence, the very concept of social costs and benefits is illegitimate. But, more importantly, most libertarians rest their case on moral principles, on a belief in the natural rights of every individual to his person or property. They therefore believe in the absolute immorality of aggressive violence, of invasion of those rights to person or property, regardless of which person or group commits such violence.

Far from being immoral, libertarians simply apply a universal human ethic to government in the same way as almost everyone would apply such an ethic to every other person or institution in society. In particular as I have noted earlier, libertarianism as a political philosophy dealing with the proper role of violence takes the universal ethic that most of us hold toward violence and applies it fearlessly to government. Libertarians make no exceptions to the golden rule and provide no moral loophole, no double standard, for government. That is, libertarians believe that murder is murder and does not become sanctified by reasons of State if committed by the government. We believe that theft is theft and does not become legitimated because organized robbers call their theft "taxation." We believe that enslavement is enslavement even if the institution committing that act calls it "conscription." In short, the key to libertarian theory is that it makes no exceptions in its universal ethic for government.

Hence, far from being indifferent or hostile to moral principles, libertarians fulfill them by being the only group willing to extend those principles across the board to government itself.3

It is true that libertarians would allow each individual to choose his values and to act upon them, and would in short accord every person the right to be either moral or immoral as he saw fit. Libertarianism is strongly opposed to enforcing any moral creed on any person or group by the use of violence – except, of course, the moral prohibition against aggressive violence itself. But we must realize that no action can be considered virtuous unless it is undertaken freely, by a person's voluntary consent. As Frank Meyer pointed out:

Men cannot be forced to he free, nor can they even be forced to be virtuous. To a certain extent, it is true, they can be forced to act as though they were virtuous. But virtue is the fruit of well-used freedom. And no act to the degree that it is coerced can partake of virtue – or of vice.4

If a person is forced by violence or the threat thereof to perform a certain action, then it can no longer be a moral choice on his part. The morality of an action can stem only from its being freely adopted; an action can scarcely be called moral if someone is compelled to perform it at gunpoint. Compelling moral actions or outlawing immoral actions, therefore, cannot be said to foster the spread of morality or virtue. On the contrary, coercion atrophies morality for it takes away from the individual the freedom to be either moral or immoral, and therefore forcibly deprives people of the chance to be moral. Paradoxically, then, a compulsory morality robs us of the very opportunity to be moral.

It is furthermore particularly grotesque to place the guardianship of morality in the hands of the State apparatus – that is, none other than the organization of policemen, guards, and soldiers. Placing the State in charge of moral principles is equivalent to putting the proverbial fox in charge of the chicken coop. Whatever else we may say about them, the wielders of organized violence in society have never been distinguished by their high moral tone or by the precision with which they uphold moral principle.

Myth #4 Libertarianism is atheistic and materialist, and neglects the spiritual side of life.

There is no necessary connection between being for or against libertarianism and one’s position on religion. It is true that many if not most libertarians at the present time are atheists, but this correlates with the fact that most intellectuals, of most political persuasions, are atheists as well. There are many libertarians who are theists, Jewish or Christian. Among the classical liberal forebears of modem libertarianism in a more religious age there were a myriad of Christians: from John Lilburne, Roger Williams, Anne Hutchinson, and John Locke in the seventeenth century, down to Cobden and Bright, Frederic Bastiat and the French laissez-faire liberals, and the great Lord Acton.

Libertarians believe that liberty is a natural right embedded in a natural law of what is proper for mankind, in accordance with man’s nature. Where this set of natural laws comes from, whether it is purely natural or originated by a creator, is an important ontological question but is irrelevant to social or political philosophy. As Father Thomas Davitt declares: "If the word ‘natural’ means anything at all, it refers to the nature of a man, and when used with ‘law,’ ‘natural’ must refer to an ordering that is manifested in the inclinations of a man's nature and to nothing else. Hence, taken in itself, there is nothing religious or theological in the ‘Natural Law’ of Aquinas."5 Or, as D'Entrèves writes of the seventeenth century Dutch Protestant jurist Hugo Grotius:

[Grotius’] definition of natural law has nothing revolutionary. When he maintains that natural law is that body of rule which Man is able to discover by the use of his reason, he does nothing but restate the Scholastic notion of a rational foundation of ethics. Indeed, his aim is rather to restore that notion which had been shaken by the extreme Augustinianism of certain Protestant currents of thought. When he declares that these rules are valid in themselves, independently of the fact that God willed them, he repeats an assertion which had already been made by some of the school-men...6

Libertarianism has been accused of ignoring man’s spiritual nature. But one can easily arrive at libertarianism from a religious or Christian position: emphasizing the importance of the individual, of his freedom of will, of natural rights and private property. Yet one can also arrive at all these self-same positions by a secular, natural law approach, through a belief that man can arrive at a rational apprehension of the natural law.

Historically furthermore, it is not at all clear that religion is a firmer footing than secular natural law for libertarian conclusions. As Karl Wittfogel reminded us in his Oriental Despotism , the union of throne and altar has been used for centuries to fasten a reign of despotism on society.7 Historically, the union of church and State has been in many instances a mutually reinforcing coalition for tyranny. The State used the church to sanctify and preach obedience to its supposedly divinely sanctioned rule; the church used the State to gain income and privilege. The Anabaptists collectivized and tyrannized Munster in the name of the Christian religion.8 And, closer to our century, Christian socialism and the social gospel have played a major role in the drive toward statism, and the apologetic role of the Orthodox Church in Soviet Russia has been all too clear. Some Catholic bishops in Latin America have even proclaimed that the only route to the kingdom of heaven is through Marxism, and if I wished to be nasty, I could point out that the Reverend Jim Jones, in addition to being a Leninist, also proclaimed himself the reincarnation of Jesus.

Moreover, now that socialism has manifestly failed, politically and economically, socialists have fallen back on the "moral" and the "spiritual" as the final argument for their cause. Socialist Robert Heilbroner, in arguing that socialism will have to be coercive and will have to impose a "collective morality" upon the public, opines that: "Bourgeois culture is focused on the material achievement of the individual. Socialist culture must focus on his or her moral or spiritual achievement." The intriguing point is that this position of Heilbroner's was hailed by the conservative religious writer for National Review, Dale Vree. He writes:

Heilbroner is...saying what many contributors to NR have said over the last quarter-century: you can't have both freedom and virtue. Take note, traditionalists. Despite his dissonant terminology, Heilbroner is interested in the same thing you're interested in: virtue.9

Vree is also fascinated with the Heilbroner view that a socialist culture must "foster the primacy of the collectivity" rather than the "primacy of the individual." He quotes Heilbroner’s contrasting "moral or spiritual" achievement under socialism as against bourgeois "material" achievement, and adds correctly: "There is a traditional ring to that statement." Vree goes on to applaud Heilbroner’s attack on capitalism because it has "no sense of ‘the good’" and permits "consenting adults" to do anything they please. In contrast to this picture of freedom and permitted diversity, Vree writes that "Heilbroner says alluringly, because a socialist society must have a sense of ‘the good,’ not everything will be permitted." To Vree, it is impossible "to have economic collectivism along with cultural individualism," and so he is inclined to lean toward a new "socialist-traditionalist fusionism" – toward collectivism across the board.

We may note here that socialism becomes especially despotic when it replaces "economic" or "material" incentives by allegedly "moral" or "spiritual" ones, when it affects to promoting an indefinable "quality of life" rather than economic prosperity. When payment is adjusted to productivity there is considerably more freedom as well as higher standards of living. For when reliance is placed solely on altruistic devotion to the socialist motherland, the devotion has to be regularly reinforced by the knout. An increasing stress on individual material incentive means ineluctably a greater stress on private property and keeping what one earns, and brings with it considerably more personal freedom, as witness Yugoslavia in the last three decades in contrast to Soviet Russia. The most horrifying despotism on the face of the earth in recent years was undoubtedly Pol Pot’s Cambodia, in which "materialism" was so far obliterated that money was abolished by the regime. With money and private property abolished, each individual was totally dependent on handouts of rationed subsistence from the State, and life was a sheer hell. We should be careful before we sneer at "merely material" goals or incentives.

The charge of "materialism" directed against the free market ignores the fact that every human action whatsoever involves the transformation of material objects by the use of human energy and in accordance with ideas and purposes held by the actors. It is impermissible to separate the "mental" or "spiritual" from the "material." All great works of art, great emanations of the human spirit, have had to employ material objects: whether they be canvasses, brushes and paint, paper and musical instruments, or building blocks and raw materials for churches. There is no real rift between the "spiritual" and the "material" and hence any despotism over and crippling of the material will cripple the spiritual as well.

Myth #5 Libertarians are utopians who believe that all people are good, and that therefore State control is not necessary. Conservatives tend to add that since human nature is either partially or wholly evil, strong State regulation is therefore necessary for society.

This is a very common belief about libertarians, yet it is difficult to know the source of this misconception. Rousseau, the locus classicus of the idea that man is good but is corrupted by his institutions, was scarcely a libertarian. Apart from the romantic writings of a few anarcho-communists, whom I would not consider libertarians in any case, I know of no libertarian or classical liberal writers who have held this view. On the contrary, most libertarian writers hold that man is a mixture of good and evil and therefore that it is important for social institutions to encourage the good and discourage the bad. The State is the only social institution which is able to extract its income and wealth by coercion; all others must obtain revenue either by selling a product or service to customers or by receiving voluntary gifts. And the State is the only institution which can use the revenue from this organized theft to presume to control and regulate people's lives and property. Hence, the institution of the State establishes a socially legitimatized and sanctified channel for bad people to do bad things, to commit regularized theft and to wield dictatorial power. Statism therefore encourages the bad, or at least the criminal elements of human nature. As Frank H. Knight trenchantly put it: "The probability of the people in power being individuals who would dislike the possession and exercise of power is on a level with the probability that an extremely tender- hearted person would get the job of whipping master in a slave plantation."10 A free society, by not establishing such a legitimated channel for theft and tyranny, discourages the criminal tendencies of human nature and encourages the peaceful and the voluntary. Liberty and the free market discourage aggression and compulsion, and encourage the harmony and mutual benefit of voluntary interpersonal exchanges, economic, social, and cultural.

Since a system of liberty would encourage the voluntary and discourage the criminal, and would remove the only legitimated channel for crime and aggression, we could expect that a free society would indeed suffer less from violent crime and aggression than we do now, though there is no warrant for assuming that they would disappear completely. That is not utopianism, but a common-sense implication of the change in what is considered socially legitimate, and in the reward-and-penalty structure in society.

We can approach our thesis from another angle. If all men were good and none had criminal tendencies, then there would indeed be no need for a State as conservatives concede. But if on the other hand all men were evil, then the case for the State is just as shaky, since why should anyone assume that those men who form the government and obtain all the guns and the power to coerce others, should be magically exempt from the badness of all the other persons outside the government? Tom Paine, a classical libertarian often considered to be naively optimistic about human nature, rebutted the conservative evil-human-nature argument for a strong State as follows: "If all human nature be corrupt, it is needless to strengthen the corruption by establishing a succession of kings, who be they ever so base, are still to be obeyed...." Paine added that "No man since the fall hath ever been equal to the trust of being given power over all."11 And as the libertarian F.A. Harper once wrote:

Still using the same principle that political rulership should be employed to the extent of the evil in man, we would then have a society in which complete political rulership of all the affairs of everybody would be called for.... One man would rule all. But who would serve as the dictator? However he were to be selected and affixed to the political throne, he would surely be a totally evil person, since all men are evil. And this society would then be ruled by a totally evil dictator possessed of total political power. And how, in the name of logic, could anything short of total evil be its consequence? How could it be better than having no political rulership at all in that society?12

Finally, since, as we have seen, men are actually a mixture of good and evil, a regime of liberty serves to encourage the good and discourage the bad, at least in the sense that the voluntary and mutually beneficial are good and the criminal is bad. In no theory of human nature, then, whether it be goodness, badness, or a mixture of the two, can statism be justified. In the course of denying the notion that he is a conservative, the classical liberal F.A. Hayek pointed out: "The main merit of individualism [which Adam Smith and his contemporaries advocated] is that it is a system under which bad men can do least harm. It is a social system which does not depend for its functioning on our finding good men for running it, or on all men becoming better than they now are, but which makes use of men in all their given variety and complexity...."13

It is important to note what differentiates libertarians from utopians in the pejorative sense. Libertarianism does not set out to remould human nature. One of socialism’s major goals is to create, which in practice means by totalitarian methods, a New Socialist Man, an individual whose major goal will be to work diligently and altruistically for the collective. Libertarianism is a political philosophy which says: Given any existent human nature, liberty is the only moral and the most effective political system. Obviously, libertarianism – as well as any other social system – will work better the more individuals are peaceful and the less they are criminal or aggressive. And libertarians, along with most other people, would like to attain a world where more individuals are "good" and fewer are criminals. But this is not the doctrine of libertarianism per se, which says that whatever the mix of man's nature may be at any given time, liberty is best.

Myth #6 Libertarians believe that every person knows his own interests best. Just as the preceding charge holds that libertarians believe all men to be perfectly good, so this myth charges them with believing that everyone is perfectly wise. Yet, it is then maintained, this is not true of many people, and therefore the State must intervene.

But the libertarian no more assumes perfect wisdom than he postulates perfect goodness. There is a certain common sense in holding that most men are better apprised of their own needs and goals then is anyone else. But there is no assumption that everyone always knows his own interest best. Libertarianism rather asserts that everyone should have the right to pursue his own interest as he deems best. What is being asserted is the right to act with one's own person and property, and not the necessary wisdom of such action.

It is also true, however, that the free market – in contrast to government – has built-in mechanisms to enable people to turn freely to experts who can give sound advice on how to pursue one’s interests best. As we have seen earlier, free individuals are not hermetically sealed from one another. For on the free market, any individual, if in doubt about what his own true interests may be, is free to hire or consult experts to give him advice based on their possibly superior knowledge. The individual may hire such experts and, on the free market, can continuously test their soundness and helpfulness. Individuals on the market, therefore, tend to patronize those experts whose advice will prove most successful. Good doctors, lawyers, or architects will reap rewards on the free market, while poor ones will tend to fare badly. But when government intervenes, the government expert acquires his revenue by compulsory levy upon the taxpayers. There is no market test of his success in advising people of their own true interests. He only need have ability in acquiring the political support of the State’s machinery of coercion.

Thus, the privately hired expert will tend to flourish in proportion to his ability, whereas the government expert will flourish in proportion to his success in currying political favor. Moreover, the government expert will be no more virtuous than the private one; his only superiority will be in gaining the favor of those who wield political force. But a crucial difference between the two is that the privately hired expert has every pecuniary incentive to care about his clients or patients, and to do his best by them. But the government expert has no such incentive; he obtains his revenue in any case. Hence, the individual consumer will tend to fare better on the free market.

I hope that this essay has contributed to clearing away the rubble of myth and misconception about libertarianism. Conservatives and everyone else should politely be put on notice that libertarians do not believe that everyone is good, nor that everyone is an all-wise expert on his own interest, nor that every individual is an isolated and hermetically sealed atom. Libertarians are not necessarily libertines or hedonists, nor are they necessarily atheists; and libertarians emphatically do believe in moral principles. Let each of us now proceed to an examination of libertarianism as it really is, unencumbered by myth or legend. Let us look at liberty plain, without fear or favor. I am confident that, were this to he done, libertarianism would enjoy an impressive rise in the number of its followers.

Notes

1. John Kenneth Galbraith, The Affluent Society (Boston: Houghton Mifflin, 1958); F. A. Hayek, "The Non-Sequitur of the ‘Dependence Effect,’" Southern Economic Journal (April, 1961), pp. 346-48.

2. Irving Kristol, "No Cheers for the Profit Motive," Wall Street Journal (Feb. 21, 1979).

3. For a call for applying universal ethical standards to government, see Pitirim A. Sorokin and Walter A. Lunden, Power and Morality: Who Shall Guard the Guardians? (Boston: Porter Sargent, 1959), pp. 16-30.

4. Frank S. Meyer, In Defense of Freedom: A Conservative Credo (Chicago: Henry Regnery, 1962), p. 66.

5. Thomas E. Davitt, S.J., "St. Thomas Aquinas and the Natural Law," in Arthur L. Harding, ed., Origins of the Natural Law Tradition (Dallas, Tex: Southern Methodist University Press, 1954), p. 39

6. A. P d'Entrèves, Natural Law (London: Hutchinson University Library, 1951), pp. 51-52.

7. Karl Wittfogel, Oriental Despotism (New Haven: Yale University Press, 1957), esp. pp. 87-100.

8. On this and other totalitarian Christian sects, see Norman Cohn, Pursuit of the Millenium (Fairlawn, N.J.: Essential Books, 1957).

9. Dale Vree, "Against Socialist Fusionism," National Review (December 8, 1978), p. 1547. Heilbroner's article was in Dissent, Summer 1978. For more on the Vree article, see Murray N. Rothbard, "Statism, Left, Right, and Center," Libertarian Review (January 1979), pp. 14-15.

10. Journal of Political Economy (December 1938), p. 869. Quoted in Friedrich A. Hayek, The Road to Serfdom (Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1944), p. 152.

11. "The Forester's Letters, III,"(orig. in Pennsylvania Journal, Apr. 24, 1776), in The Writings of Thomas Paine (ed. M. D. Conway, New York: G. P. Putnam's Sons, 1906), I, 149-150.

12. F. A. Harper, "Try This On Your Friends", Faith and Freedom (January, 1955), p. 19.

13. F. A. Hayek, Individualism and Economic Order (Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1948), reemphasized in the course of his "Why I Am Not a Conservative," The Constitution of Liberty (Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1960), p. 529.


TOPICS: Constitution/Conservatism; Editorial
KEYWORDS: libertarians
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To: Hemingway's Ghost
I don't think they can be regulated. By definition they are inalienable rights. If you fail to comply with a "regulation" you lose the right? It was never "inalienable" in the first place then.
221 posted on 01/15/2002 9:58:24 AM PST by steve50
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To: steve50
I don't think they can be regulated. By definition they are inalienable rights. If you fail to comply with a "regulation" you lose the right? It was never "inalienable" in the first place then.

Oh, they're regulated: they always have been, they always will be. I agree with you in the beautifully pristine world of theory, but in the real world, absolutes like "inalienable" rarely make sense.

222 posted on 01/15/2002 10:00:26 AM PST by Hemingway's Ghost
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To: stryker
I am sorry you have a problem with the cops in your neighborhood, but guess what? That has nothing to do with "the State."

What was that guy's name that started the War on Drugs? Tricky Dick or something or other wasn't it?

And he also instituted all kinds of big-government regulatory policies, but I don't many people who would consider Nixon (fiscally) conservative.

In general, the conservatives I know who would actively support the drug war (ie. make it a voting issue) are the ones who have actually worked in homeless shelters, burn centers, etc. and seen the damage that heavy drugs do. Given the option, would such a person say that people ought to be able to take as many bong-hits of their favorite skunk, sinse, tie-bud, or tex-mex? Probabaly.

223 posted on 01/15/2002 10:00:44 AM PST by KayEyeDoubleDee
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To: tberry
Wonderful essay - thank you for posting this. One line in particular rang out to me. I wish some of the screaming banshees would stop and think for a moment...

"since why should anyone assume that those men who form the government and obtain all the guns and the power to coerce others, should be magically exempt from the badness of all the other persons outside the government?"

Quick answer - they're not. They just legislate or order for themselves the means to satisfy the darker, more avaricious side of their own human nature. This is principally accomplished by robbing rights and resources from those less privileged and empowered.

224 posted on 01/15/2002 10:04:44 AM PST by another1
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To: Hemingway's Ghost
And I have a problem with adopting a "there are no absolutes" position. I guess that's the problem when theory meets the real world, it's almost impossible to apply the same theory to all situations.
225 posted on 01/15/2002 10:05:39 AM PST by steve50
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To: Texaggie79
Section. 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

What does that say, Tex? Is having a Florida Drivers license a priveledge or immunity of Florida? Can Iowa demand I get an Iowa license if a simply drive through that geopraphic area? Likewise, would smoking pot for medical purposes be a priveledge or imunity of California? Is this amendment not clear that no other State can deny me that "immunity or priveledge"?

226 posted on 01/15/2002 10:05:43 AM PST by FreeTally
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To: kidd
Matter of opinion. I have another Libertarian calling me a dictator-type because I support Rudy's actions.

I called you a "dictator-type" because of your ridiculous comment about "Freedom for the majority". I am not in your discussion of Rudy.

227 posted on 01/15/2002 10:08:35 AM PST by FreeTally
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To: scottiewottie
The right to express ones religion is just like any other property they may have, as long as the rights of others are not impinged, in Libertarian government you are free to worship, who, how, or what you may.

Thought question for the day: if the United States truly afforded a libertarian environment for all, wouldn't we LDS currently be living in Independence, Missouri, and still openly practicing celestial marriage (as defined in section 132 of the D&C, meaning polygamy)? Would this not have been the desired result? If so, shouldn't more latter-day saints be willing to examine the libertarian polital viewpoint more seriously?

228 posted on 01/15/2002 10:08:36 AM PST by CubicleGuy
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To: Polonius
While I'm not often inclined to agree with Texaggie79, and I don't share his views on the use of drugs in the context of this discussion, there is a point here. It is not apparent, even to libertarians, exactly what "force" includes or does not include. For instance, is abortion an illegitimate application of force? What about the death penalty?

In general terms they are both force. The issue is not whether force was applied, but whether force was justified.

It seems that the non-initiation principle is not so obvious when boiled down to one absolute sentence. Does this make libertarianism fatally flawed? I don't think so, but I do think it does it a great disservice to represent a single creed as the end-all, be-all of a political philosophy that is clearly more complex.

Yes, I agree with that. By oversimplifying it you break it. It's no better than Supreme Court Justice Potter Stewart's definition of obscentity: "I know it when I see it." That's not very helping, really, for determining right and wrong, for determining what is force, or violence, or obscenity.

Libertarian often try to explain good government by falling back on this, without explaining why. However, the key aspect of government is that it is the organization from which we expect initiatory force. The police are giving the authority to go out and get people, when it's clear the crook has not personally wronged that particular policeman. If government must live by the Golden Rule as Rothbard suggests, how can it go out and collect taxes or apprehend fugitives? The answer is it can't. The answer doesn't lie in absolutism, or anarchism.

Sure, we want government to be fair, we want it to be honest. We don't want it to do things like steal from or kill innocent people. We don't want other citizens to do these things, either, so it's handy to try to lump them together. The reason this doesn't work, and you're right for bringing it up, is because of what government is. It is not a person and it is not society. It is held to a different standard because of what it does. The people in it are held to out standard. We expect the people holding offices to not be above the law, but the Golden Rule does not apply to the police. You can contort yourself to say they are acting in retaliation for someone else (which is true) but that is not the Golden Rule.

What makes government special is we cede certian powers to it. Rights are not grated to the people by the government. Rather, the government is empowered by the people to do a limited number of limited things. We give it the authortiy to go out and get people. To go out and take people's money. As George Washington said, it is a fearful servant and a terrible master. It is force. That's what the government is. We give it the power to break the Golden Rule, so it can go out and get people who do the same and remove them from the rest of us.

While it may be comforting to hold the government to the same standard as we, that's not correct. This isn't to say that it is held to a lesser standard. If anything, the government should be held to a higher standard as we, evidenced by the principal of jurisprudence of assumtion of innocence before guilt when charged with a crime. It needs to be held to a different standard. That standard we are all familiar with, it's the governing charter, the constitution. It dictates what the government is allowed to do, and by ommission what the government is not allowed to do, throught the doctrine of enumerated powers. In time, it has become almost ignored as the standard by which the government should operate.

I think that's what's wrong with the country today. So, in conclusion, I liked the Rothbard essay, it appealed to the libertarian in me. However, you're right to bring up its shortcomings.

229 posted on 01/15/2002 10:10:15 AM PST by Liberal Classic
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To: FreeTally
"Freedom for the Majority"? That lad is dangerous.
230 posted on 01/15/2002 10:12:45 AM PST by steve50
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To: tberry
RUSH LIMBAUGH SLAPPED LIBERTARIANS ON HIS NATION WIDE SHOW

Rush has metioned Libertarians in his show today.

Rush Limbaugh (who I only listen to a couple of times a month) brought up the topic of Libertarians nation-wide over their lack of understanding in the area of freedom and laws.

He was saying basically that:
"Libertarians don't understand the concept that all freedoms have restrictions in every society."
"That limitations, laws and freedoms are based on moral values."
"Because we have been a moral country in the past we have been great. At least in our past."
He stated the Libertarians were "clueless" to this and he said:
"The furthest extent of freedom is anarchy!"

Rush finds Libertarians are morally much like Liberals based on his comments! VERY INTERESTING.

231 posted on 01/15/2002 10:16:20 AM PST by A CA Guy
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To: A CA Guy
RUSH LIMBAUGH SLAPPED LIBERTARIANS ON HIS NATION WIDE SHOW

So what if he did?

232 posted on 01/15/2002 10:19:09 AM PST by Liberal Classic
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To: A CA Guy
Golly.... Rush?

Now I'm convinced.

What was I thinking?

LOL

233 posted on 01/15/2002 10:24:45 AM PST by OWK
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To: OWK
Libertarian philosophy prohibits the initiation of physical force (including the threat of physical force), and also prohibits fraud.

Libertarian philosophy prohibits these things, because it recognizes the notion of rights. Rights empower individuals to act in accordance with the dictates of their own individual wills, provided their actions do not inhibit the equal ability of others to do likewise.

pro·hib·it
1 : to forbid by authority : ENJOIN
2 a : to prevent from doing something b : PRECLUDE
synonym see FORBID

How does libertarian philosophy -- or any philosophy -- prohibit anything? To prohibit one needs laws or rules and some means of enforcement. And is it that "rights empower individuals, etc." or simply that one has no rules forbidding or restraining them? Individuals act as they see fit and face punishment if they have violated the laws.

"Inhibit" is another tricky word. As is "rights." Lawyers know just how elastic the idea of "rights" -- especially "equal rights" --can be. Some things that libertarians question, like environmental and anti-trust laws, fit or can be made to fit under your principle. And libertarians have had real trouble dealing with such wholly state-created "rights" as trademarks, copyrights, and patents. For are these rights, or the inhibition of the rights of others?

In general, there are so many different forms of force and fraud, so many different ways of inhibiting, prohibiting, or infringing the equal rights or action of others that one can build up a fairly sized state within the limits of such libertarian principles. And if one is successful at building up such a state, it won't long remain within the bounds of libertarian principles, for having built up a competent state machinery, it will inevitably seek to expand its powers under the pretext of applying the same competence to other areas of life. The strength of libertarianism now results from the failure of the state in those areas, but it was precisely the success of the "minimal state" that tempted people to expand government powers.

Very many people would probably accept "libertarian principles," but load them down with so many caveats and exceptions that the result would not be so very different from what we have today. And that seems to be how things developed historically. What you want to use to cut back the state was, given a few different interpretations, used to build it up.

234 posted on 01/15/2002 10:28:39 AM PST by x
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To: A CA Guy
"First they ignore you; then they mock you; then they punish you; then you win."
Mahatma Ghandi
235 posted on 01/15/2002 10:32:39 AM PST by WindMinstrel
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To: OWK
Rush's point was Libertarians aren't thinking anything through and are very narrow thinkers who have it wrong!

His 20 or so million listeners today heard that as well.

As a conservative he is probably the third most popular behind the President and Vice President.

Mainstream conservative thought which Rush mostly represents says Libertarians don't get it and are morally disconnected.

236 posted on 01/15/2002 10:36:14 AM PST by A CA Guy
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To: x
How does libertarian philosophy -- or any philosophy -- prohibit anything?

As with any philosophy, we are of course discussing moral prohibitions, or "that which is morally permissible or not".

237 posted on 01/15/2002 10:39:35 AM PST by OWK
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To: A CA Guy
Rush's point was Libertarians aren't thinking anything through and are very narrow thinkers who have it wrong!

Wow... how could anyone argue with such a fact-filled logical renunciation of their position?

I wither before the intellectual might of Rush.

238 posted on 01/15/2002 10:41:08 AM PST by OWK
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To: FreeTally
My statement about freedom means that, in certain cases, if you grant certain freedoms to the few deviants in a society that you subsequently reduce freedom for all others in society who choose to live within the law. If you allow, or even encourage, pan-handling for example (a non-violent activity), then the hundreds of people who are harrassed by each panhandler have lost a degree of freedom that also translates into more tangable concepts such as lost property values, lost tax base, etc. Why is that "ridiculous" - or are you the type of Libertarian who likes to parade personal insults as a reason to support your philosophy (ie if you don't agree with me then you are ______)?
239 posted on 01/15/2002 10:42:17 AM PST by kidd
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To: Hemingway's Ghost
I'd guess the proper application of zoning laws

Zoning laws don't seem to Libertarian to me.

240 posted on 01/15/2002 10:48:43 AM PST by Texaggie79
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