Myth: The Founders Established A Wall of Separation Between Church and State

excerpt from the book Five Lies of the Century pp. 15-30 | 1995 | David T. Moore

[toenail]

"Harold K. Lane, Liberty! Cry Liberty! (Boston: Lamb and Lamb Tractarian Society, 1939) 32-3."

Condensed Debating Points:

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PRO 10  James Madison

"We have staked the whole future of American civilization not upon the power of government, far from it. We have staked the future of all our political institutions upon the capacity of mankind for self-government, upon the capacity of each and all of us to govern ourselves, to control ourselves, to sustain ourselves according to the Ten Commandments." David Barton's book The Myth of Separation

CON 10.1

The only problem with the above is, no such quote has ever been found among any of James Madison's writings. None of the biographers of Madison, past or present have ever run across such a quote, and most if not all would love to know where this false quote originated. Apparently, David Barton did not check the work of the secondary sources he quotes.

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[LarryLied]

Jefferson was always on the Unitarian page. Only at the end did he come out and admit it. All these guys were weaned on the Bible. For any of them to go outside their culture and become some sort of vague "deist" unconnected to the Judeo-Christian heritage was rare. Paine is the only one I know of who clearly stated he was a deist.

And yes, Unitarians back then, unlike many today, were Christians. Despite what most everyone else called them :-)

[MJY1288]

"I'd also like to have a practicing anti-Christian bigot explain to me why it's okay to pray in school AFTER a school shooting but not before."

That would be a good question for the ACLU (Anti.. Christian.. Liberal.. Union..)

[Texas Eagle]

Thanks for the timely reply. I didn't notice any reference as to when God was kicked out of our public schools so I picked 1970 as my cut-off point. I counted 7 incidents of schoolground killings. Two of which were committed by adults. I couldn't count how many occurred after 1970 but it must be close to 50 (not including the killings in Luxembourg and Sweden). My conclusion: Schools were safer before we kicked God out

As far as Christians allowing the government to raise their kids... I don't know if sending kids to school amounts to having the government raise them, but the question does have some validity.

Obviously there is no quick-fix that will take us back to pre-1970 school safety levels, but let's at least acknowledge that schools were safer before we kicked God out.

[UCANSEE2]

Hey, I am in complete agreement !

[A6M3]

Reply to post #17: On September 6, 1819 Thomas Jefferson Wrote: the Constitution is a mere thing of wax in the hands of the judiciary, which they may twist and shape into any form they please. On September 28, 1820, Jefferson wrote to William Jarvis: you seem to consider the judges as the ultimate arbiters of all constitutional questions; a very dangerous doctrine indeed,and one that would place us under the depotism of an oligarchy. our judges are honest as other men, and not more so... and their power [is] the more dangerous, as they are in office for life and not responsible, as the other functionaries are, to the elective control. The Constitution has erected no such single tribunal, knowing that to whatever hands confided, with corruptions of time and party, its members would become despots. On November 4,1820 Thomas Jefferson wrote to Jared Sparks: I hold the precepts of Jesus as delivered by Himself, to be the most pure, benevolent and sublime which have ever been preached to man...

[toenail]

"As far as Christians allowing the government to raise their kids... I don't know if sending kids to school amounts to having the government raise them, but the question does have some validity."

Alliance for the Separation of School and State

Also see this recent thread (an excellent read).

[toenail]

"Let the atheists home school."

I intend to.

[MJY1288]

You are correct, I meant to say, when teachers were not allowed to begin the day with the Lords Prayer.

[Captainpaintball]

Bump for later reading.

[Lancey Howard]

Excellent post!
Nothing pisses off the scumbag liberals more than the truth.

[LowOiL]

I have disagreed on a few things with ya Sirgawain, This is not one of them.

Bookmarked for future references. Thanks for posting it. JESUS CHRIST IS LORD, accept it or not...

[Dumb_Ox]

I've heard that certain communist nations had written specifically "separation of church and state" clauses into their constitutions; these were usually put forward to mean that the churches were the enemies of the state. The US federal government was most certainly nonsectarian; it certainly was not secular in the same sense that communistic and other republican movements were.

[Texas Eagle]

This is from the second paragraph of the link you provided

Now, after 150 years of tax-financed schooling, we see more and more children failing to grow into responsible, caring, competent adults. A movement is growing to reclaim the American tradition of family responsibility in education by returning to the separation of school and state.

What a crock. Going back 150 years to explain the tragic breakdown of public schooling that has occurred in the last 25 to 30 years ( approximately when we kicked God out of public schools) is like going back to Gemini 1 to explain why the Space Shuttle Challenger exploded.

[toenail]

And did you read the second link?

[chuckles]

Public schools were started by churches to teach the public how to read the Bible, otherwise only the rich would have had any education. When the churches turned it over to the state, the "public" teachers stated in a letter that the public system must continue the Bible teachings in public schools or give it back to the churches. They believed it would never work without teaching Bible priciples to the students. They believed the prisons would fill up with hooligans without the teachings. This was in a letter written by school teachers around the turn of the century because secularism was being talked about in the public system. I don't have a link, but it comes from David Barton I believe.

[Alabama_Wild_Man]

Here's one that might interest ya...