Tradition 24 Hours a Day: Msgr.( Sweeney Succumbs To Liberal Elite

Our Lady of Peace Church, just over Highway 101 from Intel Corp.'s headquarters in Santa Clara, Calif., is one of the more remarkable Catholic churches that I have attended in America since coming here from Britain too many decades ago.

Happy New Year! I hope you don't mind me continuing this thread in a new year but something you wrote has me thinking...I can date many of the Church's current problems from Vatican II, yes. The loss of institutional identity; the abandonment of norms; the obscuring of clarity of mission; and all the problems flowing from that, from declining Mass attendance to chronic vocational shortages. These are all definitely modern challenges to the Church but I don't think they are all directly attributable to the Second Vatican Council. What about modern challenges like the advances in science which tend to undermine instead of uphold faith in God? What about the crisis in the human spirit that evolves out of the nuclear age? What about the acceptance by society at-large of many lifestyles or life-choices that were once considered abhorrent e.g. abortion, homosexuality, euthanasia? WHat about the dangers of materialism in our wealthy modern world? I think that all these things have contributed to the problems you cite, some more than others, but to lay it all at the feet of the Second Vatican Council is to scapegoat what was otherwise a wonderful gathering of the Church's leaders.

You can defend the Council simply on the grounds that the Holy Spirit will not err; but I reply that whatever the Spirit's intentions, the subsequent human application of them has been disastrous. I agree with what you say that some of the applications have been disastrous but I believe that it is impossible to go against the "intentions" of God the Holy Spirit when He allows to be convened an ecumenical council and that council, with His help, leads them to write the documents that then came out of that council. The Holy Spirit's intentions will come through even if we have to go through an extended period of testing first. Historically, with most ecumenical councils, it takes an average of 40 years for the truth to shine forth in all its splendor.

Is there a specific document or part of a document that you find objectionable? Otherwise, if we are just talking in generalities, we can fall prey to the same error that we are criticizing. From what you wrote, we seem to agree that things were interpreted by individuals incorrectly. (Part of the document stated that the Latin language should be retained in the Latin rite and that no females should serve at the altar a la female acolytes and that communion should be received with an outward show of reverence first.)

P.S. This is not a confrontational reply. I am curious as to your concerns since I am a teacher of theology and it helps to know why people think the way they do. Be assured of my respect for you and my gratitude that you are so traditional-minded. We need more people who think this way to stand up in the face of the loss of the faith by many Catholics.

Since you teach theology, you must understand that I am speaking from a layperson's perspective....I have read Bokenkotter's books, and a few miscellaneous tracts, and that's mostly it. I am therefore comparatively ignorant.

These are all definitely modern challenges to the Church but I don't think they are all directly attributable to the Second Vatican Council. What about modern challenges like....

Perhaps I am being harsh in solely blaming Vatican II. However, I think there is a lot of evidence to suggest that adherence to orthodoxy is a far better response to modernism than its partial abandonment. My personal background is Catholic, but I went to a Baptist college, and my father is Orthodox. In looking at the fundamentalist and evangelical Protestants, and at the Orthodox, I cannot help but notice the contrast between the general vitality (and burgeoning growth) of these congregations, as opposed to the too-often staid and stagnant Catholic parishes I've been to. (As a disclaimer, my current parish is really pretty good.) My conclusion -- anecdotal, to be sure -- is that their rigorous adherence to their respective orthodoxies renders them beacons of clarity and certainty, and hence attractive to those who seek religious experience. It makes me sad and sometimes ashamed to see the Catholic Church as an institution afraid to act with the same self-confidence and righteousness. (When the Church issued its tentative reaffirmation of exclusively Christian salvation last year, and was met with criticism from within the Church, one of my Protestant friends asked, "Why is this even controversial? I don't get it." And I had no good answer.)

So, is Vatican II responsible for all the Church's problems? No. But it is primarily responsible for the Church's feeble responses to those problems. A priest I knew once remarked that "It's not the Church's duty to conform to the times, but the times's duty to conform to the Church." Vatican II very much seems like a case of the former.

Is there a specific document or part of a document that you find objectionable? Otherwise, if we are just talking in generalities, we can fall prey to the same error that we are criticizing.

Well, perhaps I am falling prey to that error. I know little of the specific documents. I only know that the following things were lost with Vatican II:

Latin Mass (not an aesthetic preference, but a real expression of the universal Church).
The rigid moral control exercised by the Church over its parishoners and priests.
The vocal insistence on "no salvation outside the Church."

It's not a long list, but it's a disastrous one.

(Part of the document stated that the Latin language should be retained in the Latin rite and that no females should serve at the altar a la female acolytes and that communion should be received with an outward show of reverence first.)

You're kidding. Really? And it's been ignored....unbelievable.

I am curious as to your concerns since I am a teacher of theology and it helps to know why people think the way they do.

Well, I appreciate the opportunity to rant.

Thanks for your thoughts. It's not a rant really and I admit I get a tad bit defensive but I am used to defending the faith to evangelicals who claim they had to leave the Church to find salvation. Like you, I have to say...UNBELIEVABLE!

In looking at the fundamentalist and evangelical Protestants, and at the Orthodox, I cannot help but notice the contrast between the general vitality (and burgeoning growth) of these congregations, as opposed to the too-often staid and stagnant Catholic parishes I've been to. I have witnessed RCIA gatherings with the Bishop that have included hundreds of candidates, many of them converts from other faiths. We are still growing, maybe not as fast in America as in other countries such as South Africa and Southeast Asia but the Church is not lacking in members. I understand about wanting that same vitality but you have to remember that the Church is the oldest Christian denomination in the world. If we have grown a little relaxed and comfortable, I think that's understandable. You tend to relax a little when you realize that God is keeping His promises after all these centuries. Our current Pope, however, shares your concerns and is calling for a New Evangelization in the industrialized nations of the world, especially within families and parishes. Now is the time to make your concerns known.

A new General Instruction to the Roman Missal is about to be issued (your diocese may already have it) which will help the pastors all get back on the same page. If you are not already on it, you might check with your parish's liturgy committee (or if your parish doesn't have one of those, with the Pastor) to see when it will be implemented.

It is very heartening to me to see that,while you may not agree with everything going on within the Church, you have not walked out of her. I will pray for you and ask your prayers for me, too.

BTW, I like your screen name. Are you a big Lord of the Rings/Tolkein fan?

We are still growing, maybe not as fast in America as in other countries such as South Africa and Southeast Asia but the Church is not lacking in members.

In truth, I envy those other countries. When I lived in Brooklyn, we went to an old, old parish (same one Al Capone was married in) with a great history, gorgeous architecture, and virtually no parishoners. Of our three priests, one we had to import from Nigeria, and the other from Japan. They were good priests (particularly the Nigerian), but it just made me cringe to think that, in this old Italian neighborhood that was surely 70% Catholic, we had to look to more vital overseas dioceses for our clergy.

I understand about wanting that same vitality but you have to remember that the Church is the oldest Christian denomination in the world.

Ha. I'm laughing because I can just imagine my Orthodox father's reaction to that statement.

Our current Pope, however, shares your concerns and is calling for a New Evangelization in the industrialized nations of the world....

Thank God.

It is very heartening to me to see that,while you may not agree with everything going on within the Church, you have not walked out of her.

Well, it ain't a buffet I can pick and choose from, is it? ;-)

I will pray for you and ask your prayers for me, too.

You got it. Thanks.

BTW, I like your screen name. Are you a big Lord of the Rings/Tolkein fan?

I am. I read LOTR when I was 8, and while it's not the quasi-religious text for me that it is for others, it was still a seminal event in my childhood, and I like it a great deal.

And you say that Vatican II was a mistake!!!
I can date many of the Church's current problems from Vatican II, yes. The loss of institutional identity; the abandonment of norms; the obscuring of clarity of mission; and all the problems flowing from that, from declining Mass attendance to chronic vocational shortages. You can defend the Council simply on the grounds that the Holy Spirit will not err; but I reply that whatever the Spirit's intentions, the subsequent human application of them has been disastrous.

If you were to look at things a little more closely you would date many of the problems farther back then that. Most of the things we face today were starting well before the Council. Speaking from experience (I have done this far to often) blaming the Council is a simplistic argument that many traditionalists like to use, but like most simplistic things it is at best partially true. Life is messier then that.

It is true that the liberals have hung their hats on the Council and distorted it to great gain, something they would not have been able to do in the absence of the Council, but in order for this to be true there had to be liberals in the first place, they had to be in positions of power, and they had to be organized and already working on things.

The Council gave them an opportunity, and likely made things easier for them, but they were already moving. As hard as things are today, we are already moving back - as often happens after a Council.

The Church has NEVER taught that one can enter heaven other than through Jesus Christ....
The Church did, I believe, disavow the slogan "No salvation outside the Church."

No, it didn’t. From the Catechism:

"Outside the Church there is no salvation"
846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? 335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:
Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it. 336

In response to Fr. Feeney the Church explicitly clarified the saying (previous Popes had implicitly clarified it) and excommunicated him for his refusal to stop preaching his stilted reading of the doctrine. Note: this all occurred well before Vatican II.

Dominus Vobiscum

patent +AMDG

It is true that the liberals have hung their hats on the Council and distorted it to great gain, something they would not have been able to do in the absence of the Council....

Well, exactly. The preexistence of the liberals is neither here nor there, really. The fact remains, as you pointed out, that there is this Church Council that validates them. And that's tragic. For your argument to work, you essentially have to downplay the import of that Council, and play up the import of this faction. I think that's getting it backwards.

As for the Catechism statements, I appreciate your posting them, and I'm glad to read them. However, my point about the Church's institutional timorousness on this point still stands.

It is true that the liberals have hung their hats on the Council and distorted it to great gain, something they would not have been able to do in the absence of the Council....

As for the Catechism statements, I appreciate your posting them, and I'm glad to read them. However, my point about the Church's institutional timorousness on this point still stands.

Well, exactly. The preexistence of the liberals is neither here nor there, really. The fact remains, as you pointed out, that there is this Church Council that validates them. And that's tragic. For your argument to work, you essentially have to downplay the import of that Council, and play up the import of this faction. I think that's getting it backwards

No, the Council does not validate them and that is not what I pointed out. What I pointed out is that the fact of a Council happening gave them an opportunity to say things changed. They lied. Repeatedly. Even when caught they keep right on spinning and lieing. You would almost thing our Church liberals taught Clinton.

We have two possible responses. We can skip reading the Counciliar documents and just accept what the liberals say about them. This is the option you are choosing. Even worse we can keep repeating their mantra that the Council mandated this or that. But I challenge you, as I challenge them when it comes up, to find a source for whatever is bugging you about modernist liberal Catholicism in the documents of Vatican II.

Don’t like the altar girls? That’s not called for in VII. Don’t like the vernacular? Vatican II indicates Latin is to retain the primacy of place in the liturgy. Don’t like guitar music at Mass? VII indicates Gregorian Chant is the music, followed by polyphony, not guitar. I could go on all day.

The second possible response is to stop trusting what liberals and schismatics say about Vatican II. Consider reading the documents (click here), always a wise course (whether it be Papal encyclicals or Council documents, your faith will be enriched the more you read). Read and judge for yourself. Then you will be prepared to refute the idea that the Council validates the liberal ideas. Or simply ask your next liberal that makes that claim for a quote. That is always fun.

patent +AMDG

No, the Council does not validate them and that is not what I pointed out.

You several times pointed out that the liberals used the Council to support them; falsely or not isn't the issue, I merely used "validate" in the sense that it was a tool. I believe you that they distort and lie.

We can skip reading the Counciliar documents and just accept what the liberals say about them. This is the option you are choosing.

Hm....look, I'm clearly guilty of not having read the documents, and of trusting what local leaders have told me. But give me credit for disagreeing with their spin.

Thank you, though for the links.

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