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To: paxtecum
Since you teach theology, you must understand that I am speaking from a layperson's perspective....I have read Bokenkotter's books, and a few miscellaneous tracts, and that's mostly it. I am therefore comparatively ignorant.

These are all definitely modern challenges to the Church but I don't think they are all directly attributable to the Second Vatican Council. What about modern challenges like....

Perhaps I am being harsh in solely blaming Vatican II. However, I think there is a lot of evidence to suggest that adherence to orthodoxy is a far better response to modernism than its partial abandonment. My personal background is Catholic, but I went to a Baptist college, and my father is Orthodox. In looking at the fundamentalist and evangelical Protestants, and at the Orthodox, I cannot help but notice the contrast between the general vitality (and burgeoning growth) of these congregations, as opposed to the too-often staid and stagnant Catholic parishes I've been to. (As a disclaimer, my current parish is really pretty good.) My conclusion -- anecdotal, to be sure -- is that their rigorous adherence to their respective orthodoxies renders them beacons of clarity and certainty, and hence attractive to those who seek religious experience. It makes me sad and sometimes ashamed to see the Catholic Church as an institution afraid to act with the same self-confidence and righteousness. (When the Church issued its tentative reaffirmation of exclusively Christian salvation last year, and was met with criticism from within the Church, one of my Protestant friends asked, "Why is this even controversial? I don't get it." And I had no good answer.)

So, is Vatican II responsible for all the Church's problems? No. But it is primarily responsible for the Church's feeble responses to those problems. A priest I knew once remarked that "It's not the Church's duty to conform to the times, but the times's duty to conform to the Church." Vatican II very much seems like a case of the former.

Is there a specific document or part of a document that you find objectionable? Otherwise, if we are just talking in generalities, we can fall prey to the same error that we are criticizing.

Well, perhaps I am falling prey to that error. I know little of the specific documents. I only know that the following things were lost with Vatican II:

Latin Mass (not an aesthetic preference, but a real expression of the universal Church).
The rigid moral control exercised by the Church over its parishoners and priests.
The vocal insistence on "no salvation outside the Church."

It's not a long list, but it's a disastrous one.

(Part of the document stated that the Latin language should be retained in the Latin rite and that no females should serve at the altar a la female acolytes and that communion should be received with an outward show of reverence first.)

You're kidding. Really? And it's been ignored....unbelievable.

I am curious as to your concerns since I am a teacher of theology and it helps to know why people think the way they do.

Well, I appreciate the opportunity to rant.

22 posted on 01/02/2002 5:01:45 AM PST by silmaril
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To: silmaril
Thanks for your thoughts. It's not a rant really and I admit I get a tad bit defensive but I am used to defending the faith to evangelicals who claim they had to leave the Church to find salvation. Like you, I have to say...UNBELIEVABLE!

In looking at the fundamentalist and evangelical Protestants, and at the Orthodox, I cannot help but notice the contrast between the general vitality (and burgeoning growth) of these congregations, as opposed to the too-often staid and stagnant Catholic parishes I've been to. I have witnessed RCIA gatherings with the Bishop that have included hundreds of candidates, many of them converts from other faiths. We are still growing, maybe not as fast in America as in other countries such as South Africa and Southeast Asia but the Church is not lacking in members. I understand about wanting that same vitality but you have to remember that the Church is the oldest Christian denomination in the world. If we have grown a little relaxed and comfortable, I think that's understandable. You tend to relax a little when you realize that God is keeping His promises after all these centuries. Our current Pope, however, shares your concerns and is calling for a New Evangelization in the industrialized nations of the world, especially within families and parishes. Now is the time to make your concerns known.

A new General Instruction to the Roman Missal is about to be issued (your diocese may already have it) which will help the pastors all get back on the same page. If you are not already on it, you might check with your parish's liturgy committee (or if your parish doesn't have one of those, with the Pastor) to see when it will be implemented.

It is very heartening to me to see that,while you may not agree with everything going on within the Church, you have not walked out of her. I will pray for you and ask your prayers for me, too.

BTW, I like your screen name. Are you a big Lord of the Rings/Tolkein fan?

23 posted on 01/02/2002 9:27:53 PM PST by paxtecum
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