Agree?: Rudy's public adultery & abortion advocacy disqualify him as a hero.

self ^ | 12-26-01

[Notwithstanding]

Just want to see what people think.

Rudy has been a "good leader" in the wake of 9-11. Men with shoddy morals can be "good leaders" - but is a leader really good if he fails to show remorse for his evil acts (abortion support and public adultery)? Is a man really a good leader if he publicly advocates serial killing of preborn babies? If he publicly parades his mistress before the cameras? If he never publicly expresses remorse about these two hugely important moral errors.

[Notwithstanding]

And his divorce had NOTHING to do with his career as a public servant. As I recall, it was never an issue and never came up while he was in any of his political offices. Not true, Rudy's. His mistress-keeping and adultery were part and parcel of his political decision-making.

[finnman69]

From the TIME Person of the Year issue:

"Giuliani's performance ensures that he will be remembered as the greatest mayor in the city's history, eclipsing even his hero, Fiorello La Guardia, who guided Gotham through the Great Depression. Giuliani's eloquence under fire has made him a global symbol of healing and defiance. World leaders from Vladimir Putin to Nelson Mandela to Tony Blair have come to New York to tour ground zero by his side. French President Jacques Chirac dubbed him "Rudy the Rock." As Jenkins, author of the biography that inspired Giuliani on the night of Sept. 11, told TIME, "What Giuliani succeeded in doing is what Churchill succeeded in doing in the dreadful summer of 1940: he managed to create an illusion that we were bound to win."

"With the President out of sight for most of that day, Giuliani became the voice of America. Every time he spoke, millions of people felt a little better. His words were full of grief and iron, inspiring New York to inspire the nation. "Tomorrow New York is going to be here," he said. "And we're going to rebuild, and we're going to be stronger than we were before...I want the people of New York to be an example to the rest of the country, and the rest of the world, that terrorism can't stop us.""

walks like a duck, flies like a duck, it is a duck...he is a hero.

[OldFriend]

Considering the alternative was President Bush, you know he had to win. Choosing OBL was a lose lose lose for Time!

[anniegetyourgun]

It's illogical to expect someone who does not have the mind of Christ to behave or think as if he does - be that Rudy or the media who are making the decisions.

[Renatus]

I agree.

[FF578]

I believe one of the flight 93 heros was a very out of the closet homosexual. Is he any less of a hero because of that?

If he is a homosexual then he is no hero. Homosexuals are lower than pond scum. They can never qualify for the title hero, no matter what they do.

Besides Flight 93 wasn't brought down by the passengers anyway. It was shot down by a military fighter jet. It is just easier to swollow a story that heroic passengers brought the plane down (they may have tried) than in it is to understand that they plane had to be brought down in order to save more lives by the military. People like me can understand that reasoning. The soccer mom liberals could not.

[Catspaw]

What's the matter, Notwithstanding? Couldn't take the heat on the stale lewrockwell.com thread so you started your own vanity?

[litany_of_lies]

"I long for the day when adultery, sodomy, fornication, and promoting immorality return to being captial offenses. Add attempting to get or adding in an abortion as well."

Okay, FF578, there is NO WAY you're serious. You're not just trying to make FR managment and FReepers in general look bad by accepting your reply.

I want to know which "civilizations" we would be returning to if all of the above became capital offenses. Oh, I think I got...THE TALIBAN!

That's okay by you, though. Now Mo Dowd and Joe Conason can attribute a far-out reply to FR and tar us all with your sick brush. Mission accomplished; hope you're proud of yourself.

[finnman69]

If he is a homosexual then he is no hero. Homosexuals are lower than pond scum. They can never qualify for the title hero, no matter what they do.

Your American Taliban turbin is on too tight.

[FF578]

Y'know, the "judge not" quote from Jesus has to do with making a judgment as to whether a person will achieve eternal salvation or not, PERIOD. When Jesus said it, a prostitute was on the verge of being stoned to death. The crowd was preventing from enacting a permanent judgment that this woman deserved to die (and presumably suffer the wrath of God).

This does not prevent us from judging that an extramarital affair is wrong, and that a person is committing sin by being in the affair. I don't have to be sin-free to make that judgment, and I, like others, am far from it.

The expansion of the "judge not" warning from Jesus into "don't ever judge anyone for anything they ever do anywhere" is probably the most clever twisting of the Word of God ever perpetrated. It is the favorite canard of the pagan and secular left used against the religious right. Among other things, it enables sex ed to get a free pass into the classroom (don't judge unmarried kids who fornicate, just give them the tools to supposedly prevent bad consequences) and values to be kept out (we can't talk about right or wrong here, that would be making judgments, and we sure can't do that). The list goes on and on.

One of the BEST Posts that I have ever read on free republic. YOU ARE EXACTLY RIGHT. Most people don't even read the entire passage that they quote out of context. Judge not lest ye be judged is talking about people who judge their brothers for something, but do they exact same things behind closed doors that they were judgeing about. The passage is saying if you judge someone for something than you better not be doing the same thing, or else you can be judged more harshly.

Christians are COMMANDED to Rebuke, Reprove and Exhort. Those are not nice "lets all get along" words.

[McGavin999]

If we continue to allow abortion to be a political issue we will continue to lose. Abortion is a MORAL issue, and should be removed from the political stage. We've been fighting this battle for 30 years and we have made little gain, babies continue to be aborted, we've lost the opportunity to have good leaders elected because they took a stand one way or the other on it, but the issue itself has not moved one bit.

We watch the Palestinians continue to beat their heads against a brick wall and all shake our heads at how stubborn they are while we are doing the same thing on the abortion issue.

Take it OUT of the political arena and we may be able to eliminate it altogether. Since when does a Mayor's stand on abortion have anything to do with the law? Can a mayor outlaw abortion? Can a governor? Can a president? No. We are carrying on a battle on an inappropriate battleground, one that favors our enemy. When are we going to wake up and start thinking strategically?

[Notwithstanding]

I actually posted this thread so no one could suggest my view was a non-sequitur if it were its own obvious thread title.

I acknowledge no heat at the other thread you mention, by the way.

That a man with the public morals of x42 becomes a hero overnight to many of you is no source of heat to me.

[litany_of_lies]

More cannon fodder for Mo Dowd and Joe Conason, I see.

You are SO transparent. Your attempt at portraying a far-right bigot is so far over-the-top I doubt that anyone buys it.

Look at my #52. Any gay person who meets part 2 or 3 of the dictionary definition of hero IS a hero.

[finnman69]

FF578...disruptor since November 13, 2001

[Wednesday's Child]

In MY opinion, Rudy is being honored for his actions of Sept.11 and after.
The man was a rock. He went on TV constantly and told 'everything', both good and bad.
He went above and beyond the call as far as I'm concerned. He held the city together, speaking calmly and honestly.
The honor was for Sept.11 and not for any other reason.
One cannot take that away from him no matter what one thinks of his politics or personal shortcomings.

[goldstategop]

Rudy Guiliani isn't perfect - no human being alive is. We can certainly all agree with respect to his having an affair and cheating on his wife wasn't showing the best side of his nature and he should never have done it. That's now water under the bridge. There's no doubt though that on Sept. 11th he showed leadership, heart, and bravery and did what he could to help New Yorkers through their ordeal. He put his city front and center in the remaining months of his term in office. The comparison to Bill Clinton is a stretch since we know Bill in a crisis situation like the one Rudy faced would have asked for what in it for him first. Bottom line for me is Rudy Guiliani is a good man with some flaws while Bill Clinton is a sociopath with an overinflated ego. Let's remember that and not put these two men in the same category. Rudy Guiliani is leaving office with his head held high having just earned the esteem of New York and he isn't handing out pardons to cronies, punishing his enemies, and stealing whatever isn't bolted down like Bill Clinton did in his last days in power. Sure the man is no saint and he isn't a role model where family values are concerned but he is still a hero who did what counted on Sept. 11th and after. Let's all bid him farewell for a job well done and let Rudy go back to private life with our affection and our blessings.

[Notwithstanding]

I am on record that I do not think that all immoral activity ought to be criminalized, let alone made a capital ooffense. Lord knows some FReeper extremist leftos will paint me with that brush with no foundation for doing so. I have nowhere suggested criminalization of divorce. Of course child killing (abortion) is a crime against humanity that the current SCOTUS ignores.

[Heyworth]

I long for the day when adultery, sodomy, fornication, and promoting immorality return to being captial offenses. Add attempting to get or adding in an abortion as well.

Wow. So, if a woman simply inquires into the possibility of getting an abortion, you want to kill her? ( I assume you'd wait until the baby was born, then drag the woman down to the hospital parking lot and stone her to death, huh?) And "promoting immorality" is to be a capital offense, too? How do you define that? If I urge you to do something immoral, like, say, litter ("Just throw that cheeseburger wrapper out the window."), I should be executed? And you wonder why people hate and fear the Christian Right. At least I sleep well knowing that your chances of ever having that sort of power are very, very remote indeed once you start unveiling your agenda to the citizens.

[Notwithstanding]

He brought "her" to public functions. He made it public either to stand up to his wife's antics or to make a public statement or to preempt the scandal of it being revealed by the press - or all three.

That whole episode was likely calculated as a political maneuver.