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To: Map Kernow
Seems a pretty reasonable question to me.

If you suggest that the high degree of complexity associated with life, necessitates a designer.

Then wouldn't a designer (who would clearly be even more highly ordered than his creation) need to have been created by an even more complex and ordered designer?

Who created the creator?

I think you're being dismissive, because you have no answer to the question, and don't wish to confront it honestly.

31 posted on 12/18/2001 5:43:42 PM PST by OWK
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To: OWK
Have a turtle. And another. And another. And another. (You better get a sack.) And another. And another...
34 posted on 12/18/2001 5:47:30 PM PST by Doctor Doom
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To: OWK
I think you're being dismissive, because you have no answer to the question, and don't wish to confront it honestly.

Pardon me if I made the wrong assumption about the premise of your question. But I think my original point stands--we can posit a "creator for the creator" and a "designer for the designer" back in an infinite chain of causation, but until you're willing to make that very first link between life and a designer, it's a moot point.

35 posted on 12/18/2001 5:48:32 PM PST by Map Kernow
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To: OWK
Who created the creator?

You are stuck in 4 dimensions. If indeed there is a creator, it would be safe to assume He exists outside of space and time. The Big bang indicates there was a "time" when there was no space and time.

39 posted on 12/18/2001 5:56:49 PM PST by week 71
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To: OWK
And of course we have on the other side the other great uncaused cause the "singular" from whence all matter came in the great big bang.

It all comes down to "faith" in your uncaused cause, and my uncaused cause doesn't it. Of course in science there is no such thing is there? Funny that science bases the beginning on something that inherently makes this law moot.

44 posted on 12/18/2001 6:03:46 PM PST by Chipper
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To: OWK
I think you're being dismissive, because you have no answer to the question, and don't wish to confront it honestly.

And you being the "one who knows", know that there is no answer to that question. That's being confrontational.

Scientists have no interest in proving a designer. They flee from the very notion. But the very laws they unearth prove otherwise.

53 posted on 12/18/2001 6:13:00 PM PST by dubyagee
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To: OWK
Who created the creator? Presuming there is a creator, he would fall beyond the realms of science in theory-if supernatural, there would not need to be a creator, as the supernatural is beyond nature.

I would ask you: what caused matter to arise from nothing? How did something come from nothing-nothing, as in no forces, no matter, no energy, just nothing. I contest this, and the origin of life, needs something beyond observable science-indeed, we can never prove the exact origin of the universe. We can try, and accumulate evidence to support various theory's, but we can not prove it (or do you disagree?). Presumably, science should look for the best possible answer in such a scenrio, correct? Why then should science not at least allow for the existence of an Intelligent Creator beyond the natural sphere? There wer scientists in years past (still are some around) that did not believe in Darwin's Theory, and incredibly, they made important discoveries quite well.

72 posted on 12/18/2001 8:52:53 PM PST by Cleburne
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To: OWK
Who created the creator?

is a category fallacy that is like asking how many inches your Christmas turkey weighs. God is not an event, or any other contingent thing, and since God (by definition) is not contingent, God must be either necessary or impossible.

Cordially,

138 posted on 12/19/2001 10:16:04 AM PST by Diamond
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