Prayer Warriors Fight Church-State Division

ARVEY, Ill., Nov. 17 — Jason Clark, 17, a junior at Thornton Township High School, stood at the chalkboard in Room 202, thumbing through his Bible as about 30 students stood silently, eyes closed and heads bowed.

"Father, we thank you for being the God that you are, the King of Kings and the Lord of Lords," Mr. Clark said. "We ask you to forgive us for all of our sins, cleanse our minds, cleanse our hearts, cleanse our spirit. We thank you and we praise you and give you all honor and all glory."

"Amen," the students said. Mr. Clark then began his regular Tuesday after-class sermon. The theme was "Self Check," he told the group, because "basically, it's time to get real in our walk with Christ."

Mr. Clark and most of the teenagers who pray with him in this public school in a suburb south of Chicago call themselves Prayer Warriors for Christ. The metaphor is spiritual, but it fits on a political level, too, for the residents here who see the battlefield as the wall between church and state.

They include Harvey's mayor, Nickolas Graves, and City Council members who recently have called for voluntary prayer in the public schools in this city of 33,000, where community and church leaders have asked Harvey officials to petition the state for the right to pray openly in school.

Mr. Graves and Harvey's aldermen have pressed their case in light of the Sept. 11 attacks, and the subsequent national embrace of public prayer. The Harvey City Council, in fact, unanimously passed a resolution calling for the restoration of prayer in schools two weeks after the attacks, and Harvey political leaders held a town hall meeting two weeks ago to discuss the topic.

Mr. Clark and two of his Prayer Warrior friends, Devlin Scott, 17, and David Anderson, 16, were among scores of people who testified at that meeting, which city officials called a first step in restoring school prayer.

While school-prayer initiatives have been fiercely challenged in other suburbs, the mayor's call has been welcomed in Harvey, known to some as "Little Chicago" because of the urban-style ills that have swelled in recent years with the migration of poor city residents. Gangs, drugs and violent crime have added to the roster of suffering in a city already plagued by poverty.

While politicians here concede that constitutional hurdles and potentially years of legal battles lie ahead, they say the need for prayer has never been clearer.

"It's on everybody's mind and on their hearts," Mr. Graves said at the town meeting. "It's about our children."

Illinois is among the dozen states that allow voluntary moments of silence in schools. But Harvey officials pushing for prayer contend that the law, which permits a moment of silence in class at a teacher's discretion, does not go far enough.

"What we want is actual prayer," said Alderman Ronald J. Waters. "I happened to have been around on Sept. 11. The next day at some of those schools, there was open prayer all through the schools. Even the president is asking for prayer. But the very institutions that we need to have prayer the most, it has been outlawed. So why not where it is needed the most and where it can have a lasting effect?"

"We have a lot of young people in school that are troubled and hurting," he said in an interview after the meeting. "And the first thing they want to turn to is the gangs, they turn to the drugs. But they are not turning to prayer. Why can't we pray in the school and let peers know that you have somebody to turn to?"

The Harvey meeting on Oct. 30 took on the air of a church service, and it was clear that the speakers were preaching to the converted. Among those in attendance were pastors and ministers, as well as business and civic leaders and residents from across the Chicago area.

The meeting fell on the day after the United States Supreme Court refused to hear a Virginia case that challenged that state's law, which mandates a daily moment of silence in public schools.

At Thornton, prayer at least a couple of days a week has become the norm for the Prayer Warriors. There is also a teachers' prayer group that meets on Thursdays before school. The student group, which has started a step dance troupe called Everlasting Faith, meets for an hour after classes on Tuesdays and Thursdays. Members as well as nonmembers attend the prayer and Bible study sessions that sometimes include singing and preaching. Otherwise, the group functions the same as any other school-based group at Thornton, said William O'Neal, the school's principal.

"We follow the same guidelines as the science club, the math club and the English club," said Mr. O'Neal, who has been principal for nine years. "The only stipulation that I put there is, I don't want them coercing anybody to come."

"They take some criticism for it," he said of the Prayer Warriors. "I always let kids know that it's O.K. to be different."

Inside Room 202 this week, Mr. Clark was praying again after his sermon. He paced back and forth.

"Father God, only you know the things that they are going through," Mr. Clark prayed. "I ask Father that as they confess with their mouth and believe in their heart that Jesus Christ is Lord, I ask that you cleanse them."

I've read and re-read every comment you've posted on this thread :-) You make sense to me and I thank you. I'm a tad more right wing than you are (I think). I believe the separation of church and state was designed to prevent any one flavor of Christianity from coming to power governmentally and therefore becoming corrupt and abusive of this power. Hence, I don't have a problem with Christian prayer of any denomination in schools but would be adamantly opposed to the Wicans, Satanists, et al. spouting off. I don't think the Founding Fathers (despite their wisdom) ever conceived of the possibility that this Nation Under God would ever grant so much authority to non-Christians. I personally wouldn't grant the non-Christian religions any protection or privilege under Federal law -- yup, that makes me a right-wing'er all right :-) But in the final analysis, would God hold it against me for not granting tax-exempt status, etc. to those who would turn his flock from him? I don't think so; I think He'd even appreciate it. And (more importantly only to the non-Christians) I think this would be more inline with the original goals and objectives of the founders of this nation as well.

I would be very interested in reading those 50 pages if you could provide it.

The slavery issue was used as a reference point, you stated that the Supreme Court ruled in the 1800's that religions other than christianity were "infidels". This was the same body that upheld slavery during the same period of time, do you not question the wisdom of that decision?? So therefore, my analogy was appropriate. I am not here to debate with you the merits of religion or christianity, for I feel as a christian of the Catholic denomination that our faith is good and sustaining. I do not believe however, that a public school is an appropriate place for vocal, organized prayer. Once you allow christian prayer, you must allow prayer of every other religion, to do otherwise would be unconstitutional. I suggest we do allow children to pray outloud and teachers as well, and see how long it is before christians who spearheaded this movement begin to complain about wiccan, buddhist, shinto or hindu prayers being recited aloud. One must be careful of what you wish for, the same with the "Faith-Based" programs that are federally funded, who must now abide by federal mandates which is why many fundmentalist ministers came out so strongly against this program.

"I don't think the Founding Fathers (despite their wisdom) ever conceived of the possibility that this Nation Under God would ever grant so much authority to non-Christians. I personally wouldn't grant the non-Christian religions any protection or privilege under Federal law -- yup, that makes me a right-wing'er all right :-) " No that makes you a facist! So basically what you are saying is non-christians should pay taxes but yet recieve no representation or protection from the government?? I'll bet if you asked William Bradford, John Smith, Myles Standish et al, that would be exactly the type of government they fled from to create the colonies.

Do you honestly think that we all deserve eternal torment? Think about someone you love. Why do you love them? Because you see the good in them, even if this good is merely a reflection of God. Imagine them suffering for all time simply because they did not understand God's message. Can you truly think that a good God would want that to happen and that he would stop it if he could? And if he is the creator of the universe, why couldn't he have stopped it from happening?

Does this help? :

Luke 12:47-48 (NIV) "That servant who knows his master's will and does not get ready or does not do what his master wants will be beaten with many blows. But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked."

Do you see how this might apply to your example. Remember, God judges perfectly and impartially.

I'm sorry I've offended you :-( Not intentionally, I assure you. But please don't put words into my statement. I don't see myself as a fascist (dictatorial person). I simply said that I would not grant a "tax exempt status" to non-Christian religions based upon what I perceive was the original intent of our nation's founders. I said nothing of withholding federal representation or protection. Doubly-so where religion is a non-issue.

In reading Matthew further, it strikes me that 5 and 6 are pertinrent here.

"And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are; for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward. But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to the Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward the openly."--Matthew 6:5,6

So your reply is that you do not think we all deserve eternal torment. Excellent - that clears things up for me. However, how do you explain away the verses in the Bible that seem to indicate that those who do not believe will suffer eternally?

If I seek and do not find, and question and do not understand, I assume that according to your belief I will basically be given a light punishment (although it is still a mystery to me as to why a good being would punish ignorance at all) and then go to heaven. Am I wrong in thinking that this is your belief?

In Matthew 6:6 you are understanding the passage out of context. For a better understanding read ALL of Matthew! At least add verse 5 to verse 6 so that it reads more like this:

"Again, when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites; they love to say their prayers standing up in synagogue and at the street corners, for everyone to see them. I tell you this: they have their reward already. But when you pray, go into a room by yourself, shut the door, and pray to your Father who is there in the secret place; and your Father who sees what is secret will reward you."

If the person saying the prayer in public is doing so out of self-glorification - just wanting to have the attention (being hypocritical) - then clearly it is a bad thing. If the prayer is being said in public for the glory and purpose of God ... well that, my friend, is a horse of a different color :-)

I also apologize for misinterpreting your post. As a Catholic, I feel that it is incumbent on us who are christians to fight for our beliefs and to call attention to those who mock or blaspheme them. I also however feel that we must combat those who seek to use religion as a bully pulpit to force their religion or agenda on others. Just as I feel that a public school has no right to distribute condoms to my child, it is also my opinon that I must oppose any sanctioning of organized school prayer. I dont want my child listening to jewish or wicaan prayers or chants and im sure my jewish brothers and sisters dont want their children constantly hearing about Jesus as Lord and Savior.

Only God can see us clearly. I can't look into my own heart and judge effectively how well I know God's will. I can't measure how much effort I've put into preparing for Him or fullfilling His wishes. I certainly can't do this for you either :-) I can only try to learn and do more than I have thus far.

But I do trust that God will judge me perfectly and that the reward or punishment I earn (up to and including eternal separation from God) will be deserved. I also know that if I deceive myself into thinking I've tried harder than I have, or deceive myself into believing that I've had less opportunity than I have, God will call me on it and that won't bode well for me.

Not in the Bible? Excuse me

Why don't you find it and post the scripture here for all to see?

I am looking at a tree outside my window. How about you pray that it moves a few feet to the right. When that fails, I will get a shovel and dig it up and move it. That should prove two things: 1.) nothing fails like prayer 2.) God helps those who help themselves

3.) Some people will do anything to prove that there is no God. 4.) If God had wanted the tree a few feet to the right, He would have put it there the first time.

No that makes you a facist! So basically what you are saying is non-christians should pay taxes but yet recieve no representation or protection from the government?? I'll bet if you asked William Bradford, John Smith, Myles Standish et al, that would be exactly the type of government they fled from to create the colonies.

Well, let's ask them....
Click here

Or Here

Once this door is opened it is only a matter of time before the group with the most extreme and aggressive followers is in charge and anyone who doesn't toe the line will find themselves in a hell of these zealots' making. It is this possibility, however remote, that must be minimized by the simple expedient of keeping any form of religion from being sanctioned by an attachment to government institutions.

Oh come on. It the 50s just about EVERYONE would be considered a member of what is called the "religious right" today. In fact there have been man times in our history when the "religious right" set standards for local communities. We never did get like the Taliban. Instead, we progressively became the best, most prosperous nation in human history.

The historical evidence simply does not support your wild assertions.

In addition, it seems that someones views must be excluded. You are voting to excluded all views that have a transcendent idea of God, a God with requirements for all of life. The formula is simple, say God can't be mixed up with government, then make government so big that it has its probiscus in everything- this effectively excludes God from our society. THAT has been the historical record.

I say it is time to quit disenfranchising those with a comphrensive faith. Let each community work out its own standards free of Federal interference. Will every community make choices that you or I agree with. No, but so what? You have to be brave to believe in liberty. Are you willing to be brave on this?

PS- any county that acted like the Taliban would be quickly depopulated for the Conservative Christian, or libertarian, counties next door!

That's right. Prayer should be done in private- except that Paul says in another place to "pray on every occasion". We are also to pray for one another, as in laying our hands on one another and praying. Don't take just one excellent point that Jesus made and try to build it into some absolutist doctrine that there should not every be such a thing as public prayer. Instead, pray to God in private yourself, read the whole of the scripture, and learn what the will of God is.

Besides, I think quoting scripture from teacher to pupil should be allowed too IF THE PARENTS WANT IT. I think scripture reading issue should be as big or bigger than the prayer issue. There is a lot of wisdom on how to act and teach children in proverbs alone.

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